Thinking about giving up and leaving AS...

[Manosaurus Rex]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

All good points but I think the cheating topic belongs in a separate thread. Its age old and not likely to ever be solved, except with a hicap and a steady steam of bbs until the offender suddenly feels it. I've purposely hosed someone who is bulletproof just to drive a point home. It usually works and if they come up and complain to me afterwards, its the perfect opportunity to discuss their bulletproof-like nature and they never win that argument.

I personally cannot stand blatant disregard of not calling hits. If I can see and hear bbs hitting you, then you sure as hell can. I feel horrible every time I shoot any player above the shoulders. I make an effort to apologize either during the game or tracking the person down after and seeing if they are alright. That being said, if I see someone not calling hits, I make a conscious decision to shoot at hands, necks and heads. It's a dick thing to do, and I feel like an ass doing it, but sometimes the best way to fight fire is with fire.

This might pull a bunch of negative responses, but I welcome fresh paintball/speedball converts. I like the speedy way they operate. At most of the games that I've played at FR and even Wasaga, I find skirmish games boil down to a lot of defense vs. defense and people just find a comfortable corner and set up camp. The speedballers that I've played against are the exact opposite. They rush. They play in pacts (from what I've seen). In general, it's a different and new way to play. Obviously this style is not very milsim, but it definitely has a place in skirmish games.

Just my two sense though.

[OTTAWAlonewolf]

something crazy and stupid ? I heard my name

[Frozencricket]

We didn't call for a VC Death Charge (patent OTTAWAlonewolf) buddy.

[Jughead]

Wow,

This is a great thread, I thought I was the only one feeling like this. I can see everyones view point, and agree with some.

Twice this year I had looked into packing it up, But it is true that if you find the right team of guys and have everyone on the same page, it will maybe make your experience better.

The only problem is going up against others that dont give a F#@K if they get shot or what the group is doing as a whole. Seems too much like paintball to me.

I remember the days when, everywhere you went you knew someone could be around the corner or in a bush.. All you could think about is getting the job done and not letting the team or group down.

But now, its like everyone is Rambo and who cares if they get you killed or give away your position...

no respect, no honor ( taking hits ), no morals...


But then again, we have had a ton of new guys join airsoft this year, and all but a handful of vets left... Its tough keeping the game the same when you cant get out to all the games and let others learn from yourself or others. Instead they learn from other new guys and not soon after, your games look like pantyball.

[Hectic]

Yes this thread is a great look in to the mind and i guess hearts of airsofters.
A great read and hopefully persuasive to those not happy with the state of things.
Communication like this could solve a lot of problems.......not just in airsoft some world leaders should take notes.

[combat]

being new to the scene and being a milsim scenario paint baller i am conerned about did i get hit or not?

at least with paint you see it but we have the same issues with overshooting, ignoring mercy rules, cheating by wiping and some field owners who ignore basic safety

speedball hates the woodsball guys etc etc

it has to be about fun

i wanted to play a game but after reading the rules i saw i didnt have the right clothes

maybe i cant play because i didnt bring a folding shovel

so lets remenber its about fun and every one has different reasons for playing - lets respect that

but yeah every sport has its share of wipes and anyone can lose an eye from a paintball, a 6mm bb, a hockey stick or a splintered bat

dont give up just find a better group to play with

combat

[Jughead]

Paintballers have a seperate mentality to the sport than I do... I have problems understanding where they are coming from. They sound like tree huggers, and lets stand in a circle and hold hands.

2yrs ago we never had these problems. Or even last year I never saw in any way that the direction of airsoft would go paintball style.

Its a military similation sport, come with your boots strapped!!!

[Jixton]

Originally Posted by HellRanger

MILSIMS, Ya right! Those are skirmishes with objectives! I haven't seen a real MILSIM in a long time.

Hi, I'm looking too organise a game shortly but I wonder how to make a good milsim. But I started too think about it and I must admit that I don't know the difference between a milsim and a skirmish with objective.

I realise that it's not the subject of that thread but if someone can PM me some suggestion about this I will mostly appreciate.

Thank you all.

[Feuchtinger]

I'm fairly new to this but if I use my common sense, a skirmish with objectives would just be.. a normal skirmish, with objectives such as taking a tower or capturing an item. Short game, sunday, sunny afternoon

A milsim on the other hand would put the emphasis on small group tactics, like in the real military and a more elaborated scenario that share similarities to such things as what a soldier would encounter in real life operations during wartime. Long game, a harsh and cold saturday morning

[Jixton]

Originally Posted by jixton

Hi, I'm looking too organise a game shortly but I wonder how to make a good milsim. But I started too think about it and I must admit that I don't know the difference between a milsim and a skirmish with objective.

I realise that it's not the subject of that thread but if someone can PM me some suggestion about this I will mostly appreciate.

Thank you all.

Ok well, the way i see it, nobody know what is a real milsim compare to a skirmish with objectives. This is why it's so hard to organise an event that everyone will enjoy, cause airsoft player don't know what they really want in a game. The key in a game is comunication regardless of any objective. If you have every squad in complete communication you will have the lead.
Until somebody explain what a real milsim is all about those who set up game(and they are just few) will continue to make what you call big skirmish with objective.

Originally Posted by jixton

Ok well, the way i see it, nobody know what is a real milsim compare to a skirmish with objectives. This is why it's so hard to organise an event that everyone will enjoy, cause airsoft player don't know what they really want in a game. The key in a game is comunication regardless of any objective. If you have every squad in complete communication you will have the lead.

Until somebody explain what a real milsim is all about those who set up game(and they are just few) will continue to make what you call big skirmish with objective.

Okay, I'll propose to you that you don't know what you're talking about.

Many people know exactly what a MILSIM operation is. We also know what a SKIRMISH is. The problem is people who market games as MILSIM when it's not.

I don't need complex objectives. I don't need complex medic rules. Simply put, milsim is MILITARY SIMULATION. Here's the battlefield. Your enemy is out there. They have a base, and you have a base.

It's up to the commanders to set objectives that will lead one side or the other to victory, the victory condition being that your enemy is no longer able to sustain operations in the field and the territory is no longer available to them.

Here's an example. You have two TEAMS. Not SEAL TEAM SIX and THE JIHADISTS, just two teams. For example, WOLFPACK versus COALITION FORCES, or whatever. Both teams have a BASE. The base is their only mechanism of support, and it must be protected at all costs. The commanders will establish base defences and coordinate offensive operations in addition to defence in order to destabilize the other team's operation.

A particular piece of terrain may have tactical or strategic significance. This is not a result of it BEING LABELLED as such, but rather, it really does have significance, like a bridge over a river or a piece of high ground with goold lines of sight and defensive qualities that can be used as a forward command post, listening post, observation post, sniper hide...WHATEVER. The commanders need to sort out wheter the terrain is significant enough, from a strategic perspective, to warrant capturing and holding, while maintaining enough manpower to sustain defensive and offensive operations.

If the other side comes to the same conclusion about a piece of land, then engagements will happen as the operation develops into a war of attrition.

I'm sick of "search the missile base" or "retrieve the suitcase". These are objectives that are neither realistic nor particularly creative or engaging. This does not mean that objectives of this type have no place in the type of game I'm proposing, where the enemy may have in their position some item or device that may be of REAL STRATEGIC OR TACTICAL SIGNIFICANCE. Again, the commanders will have to decide if such an objective warrants commiting forces to capture it, and if the loss of those forces (which must ALWAYS be assumed) will affect the overall posture of their forces and ability to sustain combat operations.

There are no effin lunch breaks. There are no "bomb up" periods. You hit the field, and you're out there until you're DEAD or the game is OVER. You eat when you can, sleep IF you can, and carry as much ammo as you need. Ammunition loadouts are restricted to real-world equivalents, mags are charged at 30 rounds, and you can carry as many mags as you can fit in your gear. No hicaps, no bags of ammo in the field.

When you're hit, you walk your ass out and wait a predetermined time (like, an HOUR) and reenter with reinforcements EN MASSE, reporting to a command post to receive orders, just like the real world. Real battlefields don't have steady streams of reinforcements who walk on the field as soon as they touch the respawn point. Bringing in reinforcements is costly and time consuming. Allowing forces to deminish for a longer period of time allows for strategic territory to change hands, instead of continuously being under assault while players respawn, are healed by medics, WHATEVER, and get right back in the fight.

You have a commander, and you DO WHAT YOU'RE TOLD. The commander is working out a complex plan that you are usually a minor part of. You need to understand that your personal kill count is unimportant; what's important is accomplishing your objective, and your objective is whatever your commander tells you it is. If that means sitting in a hole for 8 hours, then you happilly sit in a hole for 8 hours because THAT IS MILITARY SIMULATION.

Forcing longer respawn periods makes it more costly to suffer casualties, which forces a commander to weight all options very carefully before comitting to an action. It also creates a repurcussion for getting hit, which is, you're on your ass for an HOUR until you can get back in the fight. When you know you're going to respawn in 20 seconds or you have a medic who can heal you right away, you're more prone to take chances you wouldn't take otherwise, tactics that are neither realistic nor advisable in a real warfare scenario.

If you're shot in a real battle, you're out. You don't come back to the fight in 20 seconds. A medic doesn't touch you on the shoulder and magically heal you.

Game starts at XX:XX. You get there well before start time and sort your shit out. Then you're on the field, and it's GAME ON.

You should never, EVER need to call an organizer to get clarification on an objective. If that happens, then the organizer failed to account for all possible outcomes, which is why the best milsim games don't have organizers who set objectives, they have organizers who set the rules of engagement and the lay of the land. Other then that, they don't need to do anything beyond listening for NO DUFF calls and responding as required.

You are going to WAR. You don't know where you're enemy is coming from, you don't know what tactics they'll employ, you don't know what their objectives are, and you sure as hell don't want to get gunned down.

Scenarios like this create opportunities for specific roles like Special Operations Forces who will provide special reconnaisance or direct action if required. The majority of the work, however, is done by the infantry, who are the bulk of the force that operate at the commander's direction in order to facilitate deployment and action by those forces.

Uniform requirements are STRICT. IFF is important. Communications are a MUST, and that measn proper communications, not chatting on the frequency like schoolgirls on their cell phones.

I have played MILSIM games where I was in the field, without rest, for 48 hours. I was part of a 6-man SF team. The terrain we were operating on was completely unfamiliar to all parties. We carried 75Lbs packs (or more) out to a tactical hide from which to perform Special Operations, where we established a hide and waited for orders. When those orders came, we acted as the tip of the spear while the "regular infantry" did their job.

At the end of the game, we were exhausted, hungry, and filthy. Eaten alive by all kinds of bugs, close encounters with Moose and Deer and Coyotees, in the pitch black of the wilderness with nothing but night vision and compasses to give us a direction.

It was the best game I've ever played.

[frankiet]

Originally Posted by MadMorbius

When you're hit, you walk your ass out and wait a predetermined time (like, an HOUR) and reenter with reinforcements EN MASSE, reporting to a command post to receive orders, just like the real world. Real battlefields don't have steady streams of reinforcements who walk on the field as soon as they touch the respawn point. Bringing in reinforcements is costly and time consuming. Allowing forces to deminish for a longer period of time allows for strategic territory to change hands, instead of continuously being under assault while players respawn, are healed by medics, WHATEVER, and get right back in the fight.

I admit, the biggest reason I'm turned off from airsoft is the whole medic rules/respawn. Every "milsim" game I have attended has been ruined (in my eyes) by people respawning and getting healed after less than a minute. It diminishes the value of eliminating the enemy.

There has to be a real penalty for getting shot. I think an hour is a good figure.

[Koopa]

+1 on everything Morb wrote. Milsim is about simulating war; not simulating a teenager playing Battlefield.
Simple rules, teams and uniform reqs. Usually war of attrition is enough to last for whole day with certain rewards for things. Last 24hr game we we're running out of water and the reward for finding the enemy's base was us being able to refill our canteens.

If I havent mentioned it enough, I personally want to see more 24+ hr games in 2008.

[HellRanger]

Originally Posted by MadMorbius

You are going to WAR. You don't know where you're enemy is coming from, you don't know what tactics they'll employ, you don't know what their objectives are, and you sure as hell don't want to get gunned down.

To me this is one of the key features of a MILSIM that is grossly overlooked.

I don't knwo how many times an organizer has pointed to the map during the pre-game breifing and told me "They are in this area and this is their main objective...". My response has always been "Don't kill my fun, just tell me what our objectives are!".

And regarding the spawn area, it's annoying to battle for an hour against a good size force and break through to simply have them spwan right on your 6 'oclock. Spawn shoudl eb where your CP is or an FOB that you have secured with enough people to defend it.

Regarding lunch, recently we had an objective on top of a hill I knew it was about lunch time and I wanted to go 50% security so the other half could have lunch. Well people just went off and did whatever they wanted and totally ignored this simple rule. I got the impression that this was to complex of a concept for them to grasp.

[Jixton]

MadMorbius, I must say that I don't know what it is becose I never been to a milsim like what you are describing. I beleve nobody here organise such milsim. Keep me inform if you organise one some day. I would gladly assist in whatever role is ok.

Thank you for the info, it make things clearly for me.