PTW MP5

[Forever_kaos]

>.> Why would anybody go out and buy something hot off the market, without knowing how it works in debth? And not just looking at the flasy signs saying
"Works great!" "PWN TEH N0013$" "l337 gun" "Kick #$@ 400 FPS with .48" (That'd be insane)
I think if you honestly want to buy a hella expensive gun, atleast know what you are going to need to take care of your hella expensive gun, and buy it for the right reasons...

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Forever_kaos

I think if you honestly want to buy a hella expensive gun, atleast know what you are going to need to take care of your hella expensive gun, and buy it for the right reasons...

This was point. Thank you. I don't know how I could say it any more plain, and still take the effort to give many, many reasons why this is the case.

Read my freakin' posts, people!!!

[Polo609]

Not sure i would buy one. Knowing theres some good products in the making right now....for example aeg's with blowback and that one model with the moving bolt. Just my opinion

[GrieverX]

You make no fucking sense at all macguyver. Yeah I think it is a given that you should do some research before you make any purchase, but what the fuck does that have to do with that bullshit about "platforms" and whatnot that you have been spouting in the last few pages?
If there is a gun model someone likes, then I think it is more than reasonable for them to consider a purchase. Whether or not the original poster is serious or not, I don't know nor do I think it really matters. I just think it is pretty bullshit of you to impose this "you don't deserve to buy this gun because you don't have my experience" mentality.

Do you work for Systema? I don't think so. Granted you have previous experience with their products, it doesn't mean jack shit. As you have mentioned yourself. We don't know what the MP5 PTW will be like (if it ever comes out), but what if it ends up being a successful design like the Armalite PTW? What if it is a flop? What does it matter to you? Last time I checked unless you are going to sending one of these to my house for Christmas, it is really none of your concern whether or not I (or any other consumer) wants in on a new product.

I just want to restate, I have NOTHING against researching before purchasing. In fact I highly recommend any beginner to do so, but I just think ultimately it is in the hands of the buyer whether or not he is willing to try a new product. Also, just because you have a PTW currently doesn't make you a better player (both on and off the field), so lay off the "holier than thou" attitude.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

This was point. Thank you. I don't know how I could say it any more plain, and still take the effort to give many, many reasons why this is the case.

Read my freakin' posts, people!!!

I think part of the problem is that in recent months, there's been a lot (too much) enthusiasm from the PTW crowd, not to say fanboyism.

Having a decent chunk of disposable income, I've watched this evolve from the start, and I never thought this was for everyone, and still do not. Unfortunately, a lot of people are propping it up to be the Be All and End All of airsoft, the last gun you'll ever need to own, running perfectly out of the box and you'll never have to drop another dime into your gun except for BBs and the electricity needed to charge the battery.

Of course, anyone who's ever owned something high end -- be it electronics, cars, computers, or anything else -- knows this is never the case. And when something does go wrong, high end products incur high priced repair bills.

Nonetheless, people are going "ZOMG THis r gonna be awes0mez!11" and/or belittling other AEGs in favor of the PTW. That, of course, makes as much sense as belittling a BMW M3 because it's not a Porsche Carrera GT; no shit it isn't, but it never claimed or tried to be, which isn't to say its a piece of shit, either. Granted, the airsoft community seems to be polarizing towards either high end PTWs or total piece of shit economy guns lately, but I think there's still a relatively silent majority of players holding the middle ground with decent, well upgraded, properly-performing AEGs.

Point in case, a lot of people don't get the "PTW concept" (to paraphrase you [mcguyver]) simply because they're getting told "get a PTW, its the best AEG."

PTWs really shouldn't be promoted as just another AEG alternative, like CA and ICS were 4-5 years ago when they first came out with alternatives to TM. Yet this is exactly what a lot of people have been doing.

Sure I could go out and buy a fully assembled PTW, maybe two. But I don't really want to, and I most likely won't. For the price, I get way more enjoyment putting a good AEG together. Hell, for the price, I get way more enjoyment putting several good AEGs together. Ive been working on AEGs for close to 10 years, and I had the privilege of having someone proficient to teach me when I started; I've been through a lot of different parts over the years, some have worked well, some have failed miserably. But by now I do know how to put together a good mechbox. And I actually get quite a bit of pleasure putting together a gun, its 50% of the fun I get out of airsoft.

Now some people can't. They cheap out on parts, they do sloppy work. You know the kind of people I'm talking about. But now tell me honestly, do you really think a PTW is for them? They really should be getting directly to good quality, factory upgraded and ready-to-go AEGs, not PTWs.

As for the added realism of the PTW, it's a perk, but it's not vital -- no matter how much some people want it to be. There's a line of discussion I really don't want to get into, so I'll just cut right to the point and say I know there are people who train with AEGs, and they're fine with that; they go through the motions, even if the airsoft doesn't require it. Things like hitting the bolt release after reloading are basic enough that they don't need circuitry to cut out the trigger and remind them to do it. Granted that isn't everyone; some forces are buying some PTWs. But not everyone out in "the real world" feels they're the ultimate solution, either.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by GrieverX

You make no fucking sense at all macguyver. Yeah I think it is a given that you should do some research before you make any purchase, but what the fuck does that have to do with that bullshit about "platforms" and whatnot that you have been spouting in the last few pages?
If there is a gun model someone likes, then I think it is more than reasonable for them to consider a purchase. Whether or not the original poster is serious or not, I don't know nor do I think it really matters. I just think it is pretty bullshit of you to impose this "you don't deserve to buy this gun because you don't have my experience" mentality.

Do you work for Systema? I don't think so. Granted you have previous experience with their products, it doesn't mean jack shit. As you have mentioned yourself. We don't know what the MP5 PTW will be like (if it ever comes out), but what if it ends up being a successful design like the Armalite PTW? What if it is a flop? What does it matter to you? Last time I checked unless you are going to sending one of these to my house for Christmas, it is really none of your concern whether or not I (or any other consumer) wants in on a new product.

I just want to restate, I have NOTHING against researching before purchasing. In fact I highly recommend any beginner to do so, but I just think ultimately it is in the hands of the buyer whether or not he is willing to try a new product. Also, just because you have a PTW currently doesn't make you a better player (both on and off the field), so lay off the "holier than thou" attitude.

There is no "holier than thou" attitude here, unless it comes from you. Those who PM me with questions and problems always get the best answer I can give them. Why should I bother, if I'm so much better than you? I could tell guys to fuck-off and figure it out for themselves, and not waste my precious time and energy on the little people, when I'm so much better than you? Give me a freakin break!!

Did you even bother to read my posts, or did your dick get hard with one line and you had to fire a volley back? Case in point:

Originally Posted by mcguyver

Systema does NOT make you a better player. In fact, it makes you a worse player by lulling you into a sense of complacency due to the extreme performance of the gun. It makes you reliant on it, and you tend to become lazy. You start to think things like "Gee, I can hit that guy from here. No need to risk getting hit myself".

Go buy what you want. Spend what you want. You'll find out.

[GrieverX]

Hey Drake, I agree 100% with your post. I myself like building my own AEGs and the learning process that goes along with it.

The only reason I decided to say something was not because I supported jumping on the PTW bandwagon without research. I just found it ironic that the guy who started the PTW "fanboyism" is now the same guy who is turning people away.

Edit: And macguyver, who the fuck said I wanted to buy one myself? Maybe you are just misrepresenting yourself in your posts, but you have been sounding like an arrogant asshole.

[mcguyver]

There is no "turning people away" There is properly informing them from an actual owner/user perspective on what is involved. I don't care if you or anyone else buys one or not. I will never see you or play against you. But I feel an obligation to offer assistance when I have something valid to offer.

Originally Posted by GrieverX

Edit: And macguyver, who the fuck said I wanted to buy one myself? Maybe you are just misrepresenting yourself in your posts, but you have been sounding like an arrogant asshole.

That's called trolling. If you have no intention of meaningful participation in a discussion, but would like to inflame the situation with name-calling and de-railing a thread off-topic on a personal rant, then why are you here?

[GrieverX]

You want me to apologize? Sure I will. I apologize for that off-topic rant.
But back on topic, I don't agree with your reasoning/argument. If I wanted a gun that I could make use of the quick change cylinder system of the PTW, but I don't like an AR. Systema comes out with a (insert model of choice), that I like. Are you saying I'm wrong to have a desire to want that gun, and that I don't deserve it?

As someone has already pointed out, the "extra committment required" you put forth doesn't really float because if you tinker with upgraded guns then you know it can take a shitload even with a non-PTW gun. And as for "diagnosing problems and troubleshooting" with a new system like a PTW. It's a process that can be learned. Sure parts may not be as readily available in CANADA as regular AEG parts, but it doesn't mean they can't be ordered elsewhere.

[Mysteryfish]

It's a BB gun.

Someone went to the trouble of making the worlds most technologically advanced BB gun. But it still just shoots BBs. A puff of air lobs some plastic.

There's maybe going to be two models now.

Some people who didn't buy the armalite are thinking "whoa, shit - awesome. I didn't buy the armalite, but I really like MP5's so I might think about this now".

How is there an argument happening about this?

I'd buy an MP5 before an armalite if it used the PTW system. The armalites sounded really cool. Not interested enough to bother buying one though. I also didn't need to own the armalite first to be capable of owning and operating a different model BB gun.

It's not fucking rocket science. It's marketing. BB gun marketing.

There's no need for anyone to be an asshole about it because they need to justify how much money they spent. Anyone who gets a feeling of superiority because they bought a Systema PTW might have a few issues...

[GrieverX]

Originally Posted by Mysteryfish

It's a BB gun.

Someone went to the trouble of making the worlds most technologically advanced BB gun. But it still just shoots BBs. A puff of air lobs some plastic.

There's maybe going to be two models now.

Some people who didn't buy the armalite are thinking "whoa, shit - awesome. I didn't buy the armalite, but I really like MP5's so I might think about this now".

How is there an argument happening about this?

I'd buy an MP5 before an armalite if it used the PTW system. The armalites sounded really cool. Not interested enough to bother buying one though. I also didn't need to own the armalite first to be capable of owning and operating a different model BB gun.

It's not fucking rocket science. It's marketing. BB gun marketing.

My point exactly.

[mcguyver]

Now, I can admit that I have partaken of the "fanboy-ism" aspect of the gun. It's hard not to. But far too often, people hear "It's da shit!!" and say "I gotz ta have!" and don't really realize all that is involved.

I took a huge risk buying my first MAX. The Gen 1 was less than impressive, but I could see potential in the design. Nobody else in Canada at that time had a MAX (that I was ever aware of), so I bit the bullet and bought it. I used it, and bought another as back-up, not knowing what the reliability truly was going to be. After playing this season with it, my love for them grows (aaahh!!) and I still love the design and peformance. But it comes with a price, and a large one at that, even after you've bought the gun and related accessories.

The gun is physically hard on you, being as heavy as it is (heavier than the real thing I might add). The mags are much heavier, and they wear on even quality gear much harder than any Marui mag ever could.

Sure, you might see parts for PTW on-line somewhere, but it doesn't mean you can actually get them. Some places won't ship to Canada at all, and some can't get a common part because none are available currently, or it's out of an order cycle. With another AEG, if you can't get the Marui part you want, you get it from Classic Army or someone else. Not so at all with proprietary PTW parts. You're pretty much fucked.

You can't really "tinker" with a PTW. There are really no adjustments (except motor height) to be made, nothing to tweak except the hop-up.

What I was trying to say and actually did, was that you have to be able to either have multiple PTWs or have 1 plus others. This does not seem to be an issue with factory-built guns, as they do not seem to fail with anywhere near the regularity of the kits. This takes a huge committment financially, and where was this ever posted before except in this thread. I took the time to remind people from someone who has one (not someone who wants one) what all is involved, and this decision is not and should not be an impulsive one.

I have been accused by ASC members in the past of promoting the PTW. They bought (kits I might add) based solely (or so they say) on my opinion and were horribly diasappointed when it didn't perform as mine do. So, now you understand why fanboyism must give way to reality, and people should not get caught up in it.

I'm not saying that people should not buy an MP5 at all. What I'm saying is that you are buying a platform not a gun. The MP5 is only a shell, and likely a cheap one at that (Japanese law). You are buying the internals, the expensive mags, cylinder kits (if available or whatever new system they use), and this all costs money, huge money. Far more than any other regularly available airsoft gun.

And people just don't realize that.

[GrieverX]

Fair enough. I see where you are coming from with the SCK point. I was speaking more from the idea of a factorybuilt PTW anyways.

In terms of cost. Yes it is quite a lot. More than I want to dish out at the moment. But if you look at it this way, the cost is not quite as high as you put it. What was the price of a factory built PTW with mags from one of the pre-orders in the classifieds? Like ~$2200? I'm sure there are people on ASC that are quite capable and willing to pay that price for one gun that will be a good performer as opposed to purchasing several different tuned AEGs that quickly add up to that cost.
To reiterate, airsoft is a hobby. People can spend whatever they feel necessary to gain satisfaction (and we know how crazy some people can get with gear-whoring and such).
A PTW isn't quite at the level of cost required by car-tuning enthusiasts so it isn't one of those financially "impossible" dreams

[mcguyver]

The price for the '08 PTW line is going up significantly in January. As Systema is moving out old '07 stock and replacing it with '08, they have graciously agreed to extend the current pricing, even though the new electronics and ne motor are significanly more expensive. When the '07 stock is gone (and it may already be) we will see a large price jump. Some estimates I've heard are $1800 U.S., which will put it in the $3000 price range in Canada. Then, with mags, cylinders, batteries, it's not hard to see $4000 for an actual game-able gun. Then add on rails, optics, whatever (not unique to a PTW at all) and a $5000 investment is possible and probable in just 1 gun.

It is known in the circles of PTW owners that the cost of the gun itself is about half the total cost to get it on the field. It may be less, but you'll have to give up the flexibility and battery life on the field in order to keep those costs down.

Originally Posted by GrieverX

Fair enough. I see where you are coming from with the SCK point. I was speaking more from the idea of a factorybuilt PTW anyways.

And this is a problem with Systema in Japan and it shopws up in Canada. I've said it before, but apparently it's been missed. The kits are very commonly the only PTWs available. In Europe, they have a real hate on for them and most distributors and retailers refuse to stock or sell them. The inability of the kits to be as reliable or perform as well not only gives the PTW an undeserved bum rap, but causes alot of grief for the retailer.

In Canada, we haven't learned this lesson apparently. The rest of the world has, that's why it's difficult to get factory assembled guns, and many models are constantly unavailable, like the CQB-R was all this year. There are very few factory assembled PTWs in Canada, and a reasonable ratio would likely be 1 assembled for every 10 kits. But people jump on the kits, not only because they can save money, but because they can get custom trades and would like the challenge.

I surely hope that Systema does do anything so stupid as bring their MP5 out in kit form. But if they do, you can bet that people will jump on it too. I'm trying now and have been for many moths to turn people away from the kits. Some have heeded my advice, but most have not.

And this is yet another "committment" reason I gave earlier. To understand and acknowledge the risks involved, and be prepared to deal with problems when they arise.

My God, I'm so tired of talking about this.

[TrueTGN]

While listening to this song pretty much drunk i'll try to hold my composure together and make a legitimate reply. The song being "Too much, too young, too fast" by Airbourne. An ACDC sounding track newly put out by the aussie band much influenced by the old school rock bands including acdc. If this makes any sense i'll say take it slow and normal at first. Buy a half decent AEG and learn from it. Learn how to fix it, upgrade it and then move on. But hey, what can I say ive never owned nothing more then a $600 CA M15A4. But I look at it this way, take it easy in the beginning... spend your time learning off it if not more.... then work your way up. For some people there is nothing more mighty and higher then a PTW. Its for some, the final step in the airsoft world.. but right now only being in the 5.56 AR world..... Yaaaa I mean im drunk and im saying more then I would normally.. but it happens. Personally not owning a PTW or even the new mp5's I wouldn't bother making a comment or buying one. Let the ones with deep pockets do the thinking and reviewing and make your decisions from there. Theres no need to jump on the band waggon and try right out of the gate.. just take your time and learn off of what we have. No ones going to kick you in the nuts for having a cheap AEG.. everyone has to start from somewhere!

take it cool, take it slow... have some fun!