NEWBIE QUESTIONS

[Greylocks]

Ok, I'm wrong. The last time I checked those laws you were required to have permission, directly or indirectly, from someone.
Permission to own or use the gun under supervision, and permission after the area is declared safe for the use. That can be official or not, depending on where it is.
The closer to big cities you get, the worse it is.

Still does not mean dickall for airsoft use. You guys get a cookie, or a beer.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Greylocks

Ok, I'm wrong... You guys get a cookie, or a beer.

Originally Posted by Greylocks

No child, I will just use the system already in place here for kids like you.

I'll trade the cookie for you dropping your condescending manner. Its neither appreciated nor deserved. If you're going to post advice, post advice, if you're going to post opinion, post opinion, but don't pass off armchair opinion as authoritative fact. Especially when you're reaming people out for being immature children, and then you turn around and be dismissively insulting when you're caught being less than perfect yourself.

Nuff Said.

[Greylocks]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

I'll trade the cookie for you dropping your condescending manner. Its neither appreciated nor deserved. If you're going to post advice, post advice, if you're going to post opinion, post opinion, but don't pass off armchair opinion as authoritative fact. Especially when you're reaming people out for being immature children, and then you turn around and be dismissively insulting when you're caught being less than perfect yourself.

Should I post the wonderfully mature PM's he sent me out of the blue? You know only one side of that story.

I am less than perfect, I make mistakes, I dont explain in great spoonfeeding details. Why is that newsworthy?

Tell you what, re-focus onto the underage crowd who not only wants to break the rules, but does break the rules.

All I hear lately is "I can shoot real guns so this is perfectly OK" It's not. No matter how incorrect I was in not spelling out all the loopholes, ifs and buts of when/where you can use a real gun, an under-18 person cant buy an airsoft gun legally or use it anywhere they please.

It's really that simple.

Put any label you want on me to describe my reactions about folks who claim maturity but cant wait 2 years. They piss me off, and I say so. They should piss you off too.

Maybe you choose to stay silent, I dont. That's apparently my mistake these days. It's no longer politically correct to 1) tell folks what to read at least once and 2) ask them to follow some basic rules. I even do it politely, believe it or not.

Awww screw it. Damned if I do, damned if I dont.

I have no objections to underage players being asked to wait until they're of age to start playing airsoft. Where I have a problem is self-proclaimed experts who know fuck all about the subject at hand.

I don't care what kind of PM he sent you, but if he called you an arrogant asshole, then I applaud him. At least he had the decency to do it privately, unlike your display here. You tried to make him out to look stupid, just another dumb kid, when YOU were squarely in the wrong.

Enough, Grey. Stop being a dickhead. Be helpful or just shut the fuck up and move along.

[Scarecrow]

I don't think it gives us license to be rude to total strangers and the bottom line is this sport attracts a fringe element AND a young element. The fringe element will always be problematic no matter what the age, and the young are just that - young. I deal with them through Scouting regularly and sometimes you get really frustrated, but, we have whats called a 'Duty of Care' and its very specific about responsibilities when dealing with the young. These particular rules are quite simple to grasp and make a lot of sense and are there to protect both parties. We all should be mindful of that fact that what we are posting is being read by more than just the recepient but also a lot of young impressionable minds. The absolute worst thing you can do to a child or teenager is devalue and berate if what you really intend is to educate and/or correct. Not only will they disrespect you, but worse, they will come to hate you. Then you have no influence at all.

There are things that make me cringe when I look at this community. I cringe at airsoft games when I see safety violations we'd never permit on a range, NDs and general stupidity of an incredible order. I've been physically HURT because of some of this in the past, which is why I am selective about where I play and whom I play with.

I then see how people interact and treat one another and particularly the younger crowd, who are our future players get shit on - its no wonder they turn into dysfunctional adults who won't take correction. ASC isn't responsible for that, but it is a microcosm of that at work - we play a 'game' that we deny enthusiastic kids access to and when we tell them they can't play because they aren't old enough, sometimes its done in a very condesending manner. And what are we telling them? They aren't mature enough to dress up like a fantasy soldier and run around and play guns with us?!? How hyprocritical is that?? Yes I see the need for restraint due to the nature of the look of the toy involved but beyond that we're all a bunch of kids chasing one another playing tag for god sake. Come on. What attracts about this game is what attracts us, and if they are immature because of that, then we are by extension, so we have no right to feel superior in any way. We are equals because of that.

If you're getting that frustrated, its definitely time to unplug and find something else to do for a bit, just to get some perspective. You're no good to yourself or others if your responses are laced with frustrated vitriole. I've seen you post some really good shit on airsoft and I've seen you been patient as hell with people I would not have replied to. But, I would say that if you can't find it in yourself to reply professionally and as an adult a child could look up to, its time to take a break. I do this, I also do photography, I target shoot, I hunt, I'm a Scouter and I do all manner of outdoor activity. Airsoft is one piece of it and if it gets to the point where I want to throttle people, I walk away. Thats what Morb's post really was 'nuff said' thats what he meant. He's probably shut the computer off and gone to read his little girl a story or tuck her into bed rather than fight because there was nothing to be gained by lashing out.

I on the other hand simply decided to say something for once. Now I will sink back into the background for a while, sell some BBs and watch all you guys and hope you get along rather than tear a strip off each other.

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Thats what Morb's post really was 'nuff said' thats what he meant. He's probably shut the computer off and gone to read his little girl a story or tuck her into bed rather than fight because there was nothing to be gained by lashing out.

That was the original intention, yes. One thing I can't stand however is when people refuse to take ownership of a mistake and deflect blame. It's someone else's fault, etc.

Grey and I have gotten along just fine in the past. No problems, no worries, and I'd still drink with the guy. New people need respect, and guidance through leadership, not authority, regardless of age. That kid probably when back to CGN and said "You know, you guys are right, airsofters are all fag wannabe's"

Those of us who partake in both activities have to live with the stigma as a result.

Grey, you caught me on a bad day dude. If I'm coming across overly harsh, maybe it's because it needed to be said from somebody who's been around awhile, if not as long as you.

[Greylocks]

Hey, listen. Shit happens. I have a short temper, it gets shorter with time, and I get tired of telling people to read even when I do it nicely.

"Please read the FAQ, get age-verified, and complete your profile so we can help you efficiently" is not a hard message. It's a true message and they dont listen.

Then I face two problems; either I lose patience and bring stuff down to the shortest definition possible (and lose important details) into absolutes in the hope that those are clear enough, or I have to spoonfeed for ages.

When is that damned first-user padded room system coming into effect? This entire place should be 18+, just like the laws we're trying to make clear. Not a perfect solution, but it's an easy solution. Heck, it's A solution.

Teens can wait to be 18 to vote, they can wait to be 18 to buy and use Replica guns. Wont kill them, might save their ass. If they cant deal with being told NO, and told WHY, as teenagers, how will they cope with anything at all?

And no matter what, I'm always up for a beer with you, agreements or not. We can even go scare ricers first.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Greylocks

When is that damned first-user padded room system coming into effect?

When I suggested it initially it got good support from everyone except Hojo... hehhe... the one person it needs support from... and his concern was it was a management headache. He didn't dismiss it out of hand, but he said the dboard software needs some features to make that process less mod/admin intensive. Other people pointed out problems with it at the time, but, I felt it was worth it. I think he was also worried it would overall board exposure and it would negatively affect traffic. I think the idea still has merit. But, even in the "Mud Room" as I dubbed it, you would still have to contend with the sort of stuff you see now, it would just be in concentrated form.

Do be careful! Don't lose any of that stuff. That's concentrated evil. One drop of that could turn you all into hermit crabs.

[Blackthorne]

I hate to stir up shit here guys but as much as I know about real firearms, I don't have a clue when it comes to airsoft..

I thought the whole 18+ thing was a community effort. They aren't really replicas, and they aren't really firearms (the 500fps and joule thingy).

So..where does the law come from that restricts the purchase age at 18?

[Greylocks]

They arent really anything, so the authorities see them and treat them as Replicas because it's easyer.
They are 18+.

Be glad they are not classified as firearms. Nobody I know has the Full Auto license. They are not likely to be classifed as airguns anytime soon either because of their full-auto options.

[Scarecrow]

Yeah like I said, 50% opinion and 50% community enforced rules. I'm getting tired of hearing the law quoted when in fact it isn't the law, its custom.

The reality is the authorities treat airsoft guns on a case by case basis, based on circumstance and the behaviour of the person who posesses the airsoft gun and how they came to their attention. Law enforcement treats it one way, CCRA treats it another way. Airsoft Canada and various retailers have chosen to sell to 18+ in order to try and prevent airsoft guns from getting into the hands of those who would come to the negative attention of the authorities because it would simply be bad for business. Case in point, look at what happened out in BC. My understanding is because of one sale which then the person who bought the airsoft gun came to the negative attention of the authorities, most airsoft retailers selling complete AEG and GBBs out there have now come under scrutiny of the CCRA and law enforcement. They don't need to lay charges, they can use existing laws to deprive these retailers of their goods for "testing" and they most likely will never see their stock again - or it will be held onto until such time as the retailer can no longer operate because they've been deprived of their financial means to operate through stock seizure or customs border harassment. It all amounts to the same thing.

Incidently Blackthorne this is why when its suggested we 'come out of the dark' and try and present and characterize airsoft to Joe Public, myself and many others here get concerned. All police have to do is decide they don't like us and they can find pretexts for harrassing us out of existence without ever laying a charge.

I've been pulled over at RIDE stops and had my airsoft collection inspected. Had I not been a knowledgable 38 year old father of three driving an Oldsmobile and out in God's country, I am sure the officers would have reacted differently to my posession of such items. I was able to articulate my lawful purpose for having those in my car at that time of night, the explanation which the officers found reasonable so I was left to go on my way. Had that stop occurred in downtown Toronto and I was 20 years old driving a ricer and somebody just knocked over a 7-11 five blocks away, I am sure the stop would have gone differently.

[Debbie]

So there it is folks, There is no legal reason why anyone at any age cannot play and buy airsoft. Under 18 years old MAY legally purchase, but, the seller can do what he wants.....nobody has to sell anything to someone they don't like. You can legally play airsoft under 18, but, the game organizer can invite whomever he wants, so you can still be not included. I remember SwiftE, playing at Flag Raiders, no problem at Tru's games when he was 13.....he was an awesome, mature kid. Hot mom too!!

Keeping in mind of course a commercial paintball field may have other reasons for restricting the age of players, which is well within their right...

[Greylocks]

Debbie, airsoft laws as they apply to an adult like Scarecrow are, as he just said, far different if a younger person has it or an underage person has it.

The laws about Replicas are very clear; 18+. And even then you got to be careful for the reasons he just quoted. If you feel that the laws and rules in place here are not to your liking, unfair, or incorrect, you can decide to go elsewhere to get what you want.

Maybe you will succeed. God help you if you dont and the universe shits on you because waiting a few months or years to be 100% legal was too difficult. Just remember that the people you need to convince are the Police and, right or wrong, arguing with them is never a bright idea.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by Greylocks

The laws about Replicas are very clear; 18+.

I've not known or seen any LE use the replica laws against airsoft guns. They don't meet the replica laws because of the non-firing loophole. A replica by legal definition does not fire a projectile. This is why they can't come at you with the replica law no matter what the age.

As I said, they can seize the gun and test it to establish what projectile it shoots and at what velocity and hold it almost indefinitely at the firearms center in Ottawa on that basis...

Bottom line is it only becomes a problem if you do something to make it a problem. If you're younger your age will cause you a problem with a police officer for all the obvious reasons I shouldn't really have to go into.