Degradation of Civility between players

[Ricochet]

That is probably one of the better perspectives. Start with yourself, and how you act. Be the bigger man, and set the example. However doing nothing about a problem isn't necessarily the answer. When your integrating a new player, or team member you get to watch them grow. So I suppose it depends on the examples you set, and that players original attitude. Some players you can see coming along and getting better. However you get players that just have a piss poor attitude and want to be the hero, or think they are above the honor system. Most teams I'd think at some point have had one of these individuals. The problem is he can bring the whole team down. I wouldn't want to bring a problem individual to an away game, and make my team look bad. And I'm sure all of us have seen teams that are all together unsportsmanlike. I'm not going to name any here, but I've witnessed how a guy who doesn't call hits, or has an unsportsmanlike attitude can spread it to his teammates. It all starts at home. There are a few instances where a player won't call their hits, but it's a pretty distinct sound off a gear hit. Not to mention you can hear the gun shooting at you from fairly far out in most cases. Not to mention the BB's that land around you can be heard. There really isn't any good excuse, seeing as the longer you play the more you can recognize the sounds automatically.

Claybank is a good example. In 2010 unfortunately most of the game rained out, at no fault of Camogames. But in the short play time of day one there were issues. I saw players fighting on the field, a plague of not calling hits, and general frustration. This year certain individuals were "uninvited", and even with 240ish players everything changed. Attitudes were better, sportsmanship was great, and everyone respected the other teams. I heard a lot off "nice shot!", or "good push guys". Camogames, and the admins did their job by doing something about it.

[whisper_kill]

Originally Posted by multitech

I had a situation where I shot a player who was crawling through the bush with a ghillie on. He didn't call hit, so I just kept shooting till he did. Took half a mag, on full auto, but he eventually felt the hits and called it.

That doesn't work so well on a tightly limited ammo game!

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Is always an issue.. due to the fact that the Ghilly is a bb trap and the sniper never feels the hit..

This is how I think about it... I keep missing the Body.. and shooting through the Ghilly .. but not hitting the person..

you really have to zero in for the goggle shot when engaging snipers.

[The Tradesman]

lol no cash for winning but there is Glory! And glory is forever. lol im just joking, but yeah thats a really good point, even though some people didn't call their hits, I still know to myself that my kill count went up one.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Derek_valo

lol no cash for winning but there is Glory! And glory is forever. lol im just joking, but yeah thats a really good point, even though some people didn't call their hits, I still know to myself that my kill count went up one.

At a FR game years ago.. at the old FR field.. we were doing a straight up assault..

We came over the berm .. and bumped a group of players .. the dove for cover.. the one guy to my front was doing the "Paintballers Peek" you know .. the quick poke of the head out to take a look.

Every time he did I shot him right smack in the goggles ... this happened no less than 10 times.. until he tried to break cover and move... tripped over his own feet and dropped on his face exposed to the withering fire of about 6 guys who opened up on him full auto. He squirmed and wailed.. and crawled to cover.. only to start doing the "paintballer's Peek" all over again..it was so blatant as to be comical.

Eventually we advanced and someone shot him with a burst up close and personal like.. which he took. When questioned about all the other hits... his only answer was "no english"

Of course later he was overheard in the safe zone relating how he held off an assault single handed..until some asshole shot him too close.

related in Perfect English.

There are people like this out there... but regardless the way I looked at it was.. I got 11 kills

[Ricochet]

Sounds like you handled that situation well. Kept at it, and eventually advanced and did what you cam there to do. I have to chuckle at the close range burst. Lol, remind the guy to call his hits. I would have afterwords pointed him out though. It's not just a one shot deal. That blatancy of that instance tells me that this guy will continue doing it, to look like the hero. But most importantly your attitude about it was good. Kept your cool, and kept playing.

But every now and then, and back me up here guys. You bust your balls to hammer out an objective; like taking a structure. And the guys inside don't call their hits. So by the time you finally do capture it, their reinforcements have already arrived. When you should have owned that situation 15 minutes ago. So the jerks not playing honorably have single handedly altered the course of the game, and ruined your effort. This can be frustrating. It can't be okay to continually let them get away with it. Or it won't stop.

[whisper_kill]

All this goes back to a concept I had for a website. A select number of approved and veteran hosts post games. Players sign up, pay for the game in advance online. When a game is complete, if there are any complaints to the host, they indicate it on the specific players record. This record is maintained in the system and creates a rating for a player. Hosts can then set the minimum player rating they are willing to accept for a game. It doesn't solve the issue with cheating players, but with enough complaints... Eventually, a player may find no games to play. Unfortunately it needs to be adopted by the community and not part of the community to work.

[Ricochet]

An interesting idea, but open to abuse as well. Players who just don't like each other, or other teams giving false ratings. But I'm sure there is a way to do it. Something like; only game moderators can apply a rating. I guess the main thing is that it's sad we have to think up things like this.

[ThunderCactus]

One other thing to bring up is experience.
I actually had something come up at claybank 2010 during the huge rainstorm. I charged up a hill with my 249, shot someone at the bottom of the hill, then shot a few guys on top. And anyone who owns a 249 knows you can't hear crap when your holding it right next to your face. Well it came up later that someone claimed they had shot me in the pouches from about 40 feet away or so.
Okay, so this person was close enough to know that his BB's were bouncing off my pouches in a 60mm rainstorm but for some reason didn't think of aiming at my legs. Not experienced enough to realize he's shooting a wet pouch on an armored plate carrier which makes almost no noise to begin with, on a guy who can't hear crap because he's firing off a 249, and looking in the other direction.
Any other airsofter with experience said they would have shot me in the legs, and I would have shot me in the legs too. And just in general, as an experienced airsofter, I would more often shoot someone in the legs rather than the plate carrier because I know they're going to FEEL it.
So of course I was upset that apparently I didn't call my hit on that, but said person also went on to accuse two high standing 8 year veterans of blatant cheating, was caught by one long time veteran of blatant cheating, and doesn't exactly have a clean rep in his own province either lol


However in contrary to this thread, I found the attitude at claybank 2011 to be REALLY improved by leaps and bounds compared to the last two years. Almost no complaining, minimal cheating, very few infractions given out. And all round a real good time.

[whisper_kill]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

An interesting idea, but open to abuse as well. Players who just don't like each other, or other teams giving false ratings. But I'm sure there is a way to do it. Something like; only game moderators can apply a rating. I guess the main thing is that it's sad we have to think up things like this.

That's why only complaints AT the game, TO the veteran host would be logged. Essentially, the veteran host has the final call.

[Ricochet]

Kind of like a coalition of game hosts. It wouldn't be a bad idea. But save yourself some work. A player that has a good attitude, or isn't really a problem doesn't even need a page. Might as well only flag the ones that have had a serious infraction. Or continual complaints against them. Keeping track of every airsoft player would be difficult, and why rate a guy that is average to great. But if someone gets flagged, you can then record; who, where, and for what. If they get flagged again, then they can be added to a open database or something like that.

As I said before, I thought Claybank 2011 was a huge success and went extremely well. Especially compared to previous years. I wouldn't take anything away from Camogames efforts in the past though. When you have near 300 attendees, there will be variables. And of course you can't predict how everyone is going to act. But it does provide tools to use for the next year. But I agree with ThunderCactus. One thing they implemented was the wrist bands. Every player had to have one on at all times. All admins carried a hole punch. If you had an infractio, you got punched. Three punches, and you were removed from the property. Very effective.

[Goldman]

Warning, the below text mass wanders before finding its point and is a bit of a rant.

It's funny, at this point I find myself siding with arguments I was once vehemently against 5-6 years ago. I think it’s a combination of A) The forum, and B) players outlook on games.

When the forums were, well not new but perhaps younger the site really seemed to only be used for three things. Organizing games, the B/S/T and general discussion on the game (Think of the Options Paper days with KD). I think at that point there may not even have been an off topic section, but in any case the community was centered on the game and how to improve it.

If you wanted to socialize with someone, you generally met them at a game, hit it off and became friends from there. With this generation of the community we find many more people who connect through online persona rather than who they really are. As such they carry this behaviour over to the field (be it intentional to “fit in” or they view their forum-self as the character they play when they dress up to shoot people with plastic in the woods). This results in players behaving in the much more selfish, stand-offish, or even asshole way they do on the forums.

Don’t get me wrong, there certainly used to be rivalries and hatred spewed back and forth (Remember the old Wolfpack vs. ASC days?) However those differences were based between people who for the most part, knew each other in real life. As much as there was disagreement, there was also respect for the person as a player and as a person. It’s kind of hard to generally act like a douche to someone you play with or see once a month.

In addition to that Poncho and Scarecrow’s old adage of “toleration is a form of consent”. Hosts vary so much now, and players aren’t as bound to a specific field as they once were. (There used to always be a consistent Deadlands crew, FR crew, Splatters crew, etc. that you could count on showing up for a game at a given field, or any game hosted by a certain host.) This variance prevents hosts or even players who frequent specific fields and games from taking action against the offending parties. As people realize there is no real punishment for unsportsmanlike behaviour their own selfish need to feed their ego takes over.

I always suspected this is what a game organizer’s forum would be there for. As organizers or hosts receive complaints about a player, they would dump them in that section of the forum. If the concerns seem valid, that player no longer finds themselves welcome at games until they shape up. I distinctly remember this is how ASC used to operate, but somewhere the concept seems to have been lost in the shuffle.

The solution? Organizers/hosts may have to take a further step to pay attention to these kinds of complaints and bar people from attending their games. Players need to step up if this person shows up, and refuse to participate until they leave the field. Generally the community at large needs to put on its “big boy pants” and stop tolerating the assholes and game spoilers. Do you see a person in particular cheating? Even a whole team? Document it, speak to the hosts and DO SOMETHING.

/rant

[The Hunter]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

One of the largest problems with people taking hits is caused by the shooter and not the person hit.

Many people will fire a couple of shots .. see them hit .. and then start yelling for the guy to "take his hit"

The guy may not have felt them.. these bbs weigh less than half a gram.. even a fold of fabric will catch the energy and stop a person from feeling it.

I have always promoted a "fire for effect" approach.. in that the target continues to receive fire until they acknowledge the hit. This has resulted in some guys getting mad for being "shot too much" but I don't care about that at all. When I shoot someone.. they get shot.. and they know it.

Usually I get this kind of response, "HIT HIT HIT.. OW Fuck the first 5 were good"

you can't trust one or two bbs to effectively transmit your intent into a target. Often it takes many more. Sometimes it takes too many.

but just like in real life .. some people are harder to kill than others.

I agree with this approach, and it is how I play. if you don't feel the first one, you might feel one of the later 350 rounds. It's not to hurt anyone, but as he said "some people are harder to kill than others" and I don't take the chance.

[ThunderCactus]

I don't mind getting hit by a 30 round burst, it's airsoft, your going to get shot, if you can't take it, leave. But I hate it when I've called my hit loudly 3 times, have my dead rag on, and people are still shooting me.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Goldman

I always suspected this is what a game organizer’s forum would be there for. As organizers or hosts receive complaints about a player, they would dump them in that section of the forum. If the concerns seem valid, that player no longer finds themselves welcome at games until they shape up. I distinctly remember this is how ASC used to operate, but somewhere the concept seems to have been lost in the shuffle.

The solution? Organizers/hosts may have to take a further step to pay attention to these kinds of complaints and bar people from attending their games. Players need to step up if this person shows up, and refuse to participate until they leave the field. Generally the community at large needs to put on its “big boy pants” and stop tolerating the assholes and game spoilers. Do you see a person in particular cheating? Even a whole team? Document it, speak to the hosts and DO SOMETHING.

/rant

Did it... got it up and running .. and was constantly undermined by hosts who would simply not care about a players behavior and let banned players play.

Lots of them specifically catered to the players not welcome elsewhere...

I got tired.. handed off management of the forum to another..and it's gone nowhere.