V2 Mechbox Questions

[ThunderCactus]

My 249 has gone through atleast 60,000 rounds with the only sign of ANY wear being on the piston.
And I find it hard to believe that a PTW outranges any bolt action rifle. STOCK bolt action rifle for sure, but not upgraded ones. They still need to make an M100 cylinder, but even with the M110 cylinder a PTW MAXIII is comparable to my HK11 in range and for only double the cost, I've done testing. And my friend's VSR-10 gets an extra 40 feet of range and better accuracy than my HK11, probably the best range and accuracy I've seen come out of any gun. I put a 60$ systema cylinder set and spring guide in my UMP and it gets the same range as a PTW, although with less accuracy and only 310fps. The maximum limit of your range and accuracy is governed by your ammo, not the brand name on the side of your receiver.

[Dracheous]

Range is not only how far the round can travel, but also how far you can control it. I had a fully tuned APSII SV, that fired 500FPS, having tried the PTW, I can tell you that the PTW will range and and get more rounds on target than my APS could.

I think you're gravely mistaken in stating that range and accuracy is governed by ammo, this is definitely not true. Ammo is a large factor, but equal to that of the gun. Every gun will have its niche for ammo. Using my APSII SV as an example, it would get better accuracy using .42gr weight rounds than using .30gr. However, the .30 would get much more range due to its lighter weight. So for wooded area games, I would pop out my bolt, remove an o-ring that allowed air to vent making the gun fire exactly 445fps, and use the heavier .42 rounds because of their accuracy. For fields that permit and have the range, I'd put the o-ring back in and fire 500fps with .30 to get my range. But if its a windy day, back to the .42's.

The PTW's hop up design is superior to that of any airsoft device on the market. Its ability to harness maximum efficiencies enables it to range and get better accuracy than the bolt action. To top it off, when dealing with ranges that the BA finds it self short, the PTW can fire a burst and increase its ability to knock down the target at range. Still, the largest advantage to bolt action is sound, or rather the lack there of. The PTW I've gotten my hands on and tried was the M4 and CBR version MAX. And I fully intend to get myself a CQBR to go hand in hand with a BA rifle, because they both can play at those ranges, and one has the purpose to allow me to remain undetected. However when shit hits the fan, the CQBR small and easily carried tandom, will be able to come up and knock down targets faster and further. Problem is now, there's a green wookie hopping and popping his way with a gun screaming death :P.

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

For those of you who want some hard numbers on effective range, here's what I found today. I paced off distances based on where the BBs landed on a roadway at our local paintball field. 8 of my paces is 20 feet. All BBs used are 0.25g Metal Tech.

M90 = 285 fps = 65 paces = 162.5 feet
M110 = 355 fps = 85 paces = 212.5 feet
M130 = 395 fps = 105 paces = 262.5 feet
M150 = 455 fps = 125 paces = 312.5 feet

The temperature was 17 degrees and I was firing into a very slight headwind (barely noticeable). Both the M4 and CQB-R were used and the numbers are an average of the two. Neither gun was particularily better than the other in any area. These ranges were measured across level ground with the hop-up dialed in correctly. More hop-up will mean greater distance, but the accuracy suffers greatly.

At these ranges, single-shot kills would be lucky shots, but a short burst will get the job done. If you were elevated (like in a sniper tower) and had a tailwind to work with, I would expect big increases in these numbers.

I did this past summer as a guide to effective range (ie the real-world ability to hit a target). I 've pulled out the M150, shot from a tower with a slight tailwind and had shots extend out to 250 paces, or about 500 feet. Not much accuracy, but a burst would get the job done. I too have gone toe-to-toe with all manner of upgraded guns and hit guys from ranges thought utterly impossible by the guys I hit. There are many PTWs in Alberta, I'd venture to say the majority in present in Canada, and I'm not the only one to notice this either. JOC has quite a few and it has led to a bit of an arms race down there.

Mark, I know you want to do the CNC mechbox shell, but didn't Poh have a bit of trouble getting the Pro-Win to perfrom as expected, and I think that why Aaron bought a PTW instead?

[ThunderCactus]

I said the maximum limit. What I'm saying is, at 400fps you can only make a .25 go so far before it loses its energy. Once that's happening the only way to get better range is to go to a heavier bb, like a .28g, however if your not firing it fast enough it will just lose it's energy faster than the .25. When you use .2s, no matter how good your internal setup is, theres a range at which it will just peel off from its flight path in any random direction, not due to wind but because it's lost too much forward momentum and gives way to the force of its spin. At the last 5 feet of its range my HK11 does the same thing with .25s, I tested the hopup on the PTW MAX3, theres a butter zone where at its maximum range the bb drops off and its very accurate, but if you adjust it just above this so the bb has the flattest flight path, the bb will veer off at the edge of its range.

[Ducky]

G&P, Guarder, and Systema V2 gearbox shells are very strong, and will last along time. I have never seen any of them crack or break, just TM here also. I think a lot of people's opinions on here about the fragility of V2 is rhetoric and not based on any credible information, since I do not see any proof or pictures of broken shells of those types from reasonably upgraded AEGs. I would recommend the G&P shells primarily, based on the fact that those G&P m249 seem to be able to handle many thousands of rounds through them with no damage to the shell at all.

On a side note I have fired a ptw max, and I definitely think the ranges described are exagerated. That and the fact the fields we play on here in MB often leads to very close engagements at which an m110 cylinder in my opinion is over kill, and not acceptable. Unless Systema came out with a m100 cylinder I see no future for ptw here.

[Flatlander]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

Mark, I know you want to do the CNC mechbox shell, but didn't Poh have a bit of trouble getting the Pro-Win to perfrom as expected, and I think that why Aaron bought a PTW instead?

I know Poh had some troubles with the installation of the hop-up (I think it was the rubber) but I have not heard of any field test results. Aaron has baught and sold more guns than I can count this year so who knows why

Anyways, this thread got a bit off topic and it appears people are confused on what I was originally asking. I want to know what the best/strongest V2 mechbox is that can accept a modify gearset. I plan to take this mechbox and have a 1:1 clone CNC machined (cost permitting). A buddy of mine wants one also and thought having the modify gearset capatible would be really handy for us less inclined gundocs. The stainless steel or high grade aluminum construction should take care of the strength issue. I don't know if I can justify $300 for a Pro-win and it seems most places are sold out at the moment.

EDIT: I have heard of a systema m120 drop in mechbox breaking (first season I believe).

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Ducky

On a side note I have fired a ptw max, and I definitely think the ranges described are exagerated. That and the fact the fields we play on here in MB often leads to very close engagements at which an m110 cylinder in my opinion is over kill, and not acceptable. Unless Systema came out with a m100 cylinder I see no future for ptw here.

I have worked on Systema and many G&P mechboxes, and although they are tougher than a Marui, they hav inherent flaws. I've switch stop posts break on both, and this requires a bit of work to fix. They are cast alloy, and are susceptable to temperature extremes, as well as repeated shock impacts.

Now, you may have had experience with 1 or maybe a few PTWs, but my numbers are measured, not guessed. And I've been to games where 12-20 PTWs have been present. The range adavantages are well known, and documented as above.

Your rules are not dissimilar from anyone else's. I use the M110 as my lowest velocity cylinder (M90 is back-up), with the M130 being my primary. I can do in semi-auto what many guys can't do with equal or greater velocity and a c-mag for capacity.

You can't judge the hop-up system against anyone else's because they are so vastly different. The PTW gives far more rotational eneregy to the BB than any other gun, hence it's ability to stay straight for so far. It also gives the BB more linear flight energy because it's not wasting energy lost in the hop-up chamber or in friction against a rubber sleeve. This results in greater distance. Thsi is the science behind them, and not really an "open to interpetation" sort-of-thing.

But this has nothing to do with a V2 mechbox. The V2 is so vastly different from a PTW in all respects.

[lupo]

I have seen/worked on plenty of V2 systema and other reinforced gearboxes that have cracked. As stated before they are all cast not machined so this will lead to problems in the cold and impact. I have seen them break in the same manner as the TM boxes. Usually breaking on the forward end under the cylinder. Usually caused by impact with m120 springs and higher , the piston head looses some of its seal and slams the front of the cylinder causing a crack. The MOST common breakage on the systema boxes is actually the trigger post for some reason its the worst out of all the gearboxes. The post is half the size of the TM one and breaks constantly. It can be reinforced by drilling out the post and adding a solid piece of metal. I have also seen a few systema boxes fail due to the cold. Usually around -5 they can break in the same manner as a impact failure.

[LUTNIT]

M110 cylinder overkill? What are your field limits? Here in Ontario and Quebec its generally 400fps for field games with a 10' surrender rule and 350fps indoor. An M110 cylinder delivers 380-390fps and an M90 delivers 320-340fps. How close of an engagement are you talking about? I regularly shoot people at 20-50' shooting 390fps with .20's (though I use .25's) and no one complains, do you guys shoot each other point blank or something?

As for range, I wont go into physics or anything like that since I'm no expert but with my MAX CQB-R and an M110 cylinder shooting 390fps (chronied with BB Bastard .20's) using metal tech .25's I can nail people at ranges (bad at estimating distances that long so I wont) firing straight at them without aiming high when their BB's are falling short of me (maybe 20-30' short?) and I know they are shooting 395-405fps (again chronied with BB Bastard .20's) with regular AEG's (ver.2 and ver.3 mechboxes firing BB Bastard .25's and .28's.) Don't know anything other than results but all I can say it PTW FTW.

As for ver.2 mechboxes talk to Apoc or Stalker from the warmongers, they both have blown apart HurricanE and G&P "reinforced" mechboxes, the HurricanE one was blown apart with only a PDI 150% in it. Apoc's G&P mechbox shells where done in by 390-410fps upgrades I think, not 100% sure, just fired enough rounds that the metal fatigued enough and broke. Anyone who knows Apoc knows he whores ammo though.

[ThunderCactus]

So to answer your question I think the G&P and Guarder shells are the best out there right now. I have seen fitting issues with the Guarder shell, the piston guides on mine were improperly casted and needed to be filed, and one I worked on had too much clearance between the two piston guides. In both cases the shells were modified and haven't had any problems. And I've noticed the G&P gearboxes require more shimming than usual for the gears, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, it gives you more room to move your gears around so as to make sure nothing is rubbing anywhere its not supposed to be.

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by LUTNIT

M110 cylinder overkill? What are your field limits? Here in Ontario and Quebec its generally 400fps for field games with a 10' surrender rule and 350fps indoor. An M110 cylinder delivers 380-390fps and an M90 delivers 320-340fps. How close of an engagement are you talking about? I regularly shoot people at 20-50' shooting 390fps with .20's (though I use .25's) and no one complains, do you guys shoot each other point blank or something?

We have no min range at all, the bush here during the summer season can be thick enough that engagements at 20-50 feet are common place. Face masks are rare at best, and really I don't feel comfortable shooting a person with full auto at just under 400fps. My AEGs are always around 330-360 at most, this ensures I am not going to be removing teeth or anything. min surrender distance is not an option, and generally makes the game a lot less fun.

Mcguyver don't you think it would be a better idea to have presetup targets at different ranges and see if you could hit them, not measure where the bbs land. First off the bbs will roll and bouce a ways adding distance, and that's also after falling from the height you are holding the rifle at to the ground, which will give them abit more also. I am not saying they have crappy range, I just did not find them that impressive compared to nicely upgraded aeg that are not ptw.

As far as this topic goes you guys have gone way off topic. The question was what V2 shell to get. I still recommend G&P they last a long time, many thousands of rounds around the 340-360 range. TM is garbage they will break pretty fast, so stay away from those.

[ILLusion]

Put the proper components in to a v2 gearbox and it will last hundreds of thousands of rounds.

[Flatlander]

So everyone's still confused about what I'm still really trying to find out. I am NOT planning on buying a cast monkey metal mechbox and using it in my gun. What I AM planning on is looking into is buying one and having an exact 1:1 replica of the mechbox CNC'd out of a much stronger material (stainless steel or high strength aluminum). So, the info I'm looking for is:

What mechbox is best/strongest that will fit modify gearsets (ie. KA, Hurricane, TM, NON-reinforced mechboxes). These are the few I've read will work with modify gearsets.

What I have learned and already knew: G&P seem to be the best reinforced shell but won't accept modify gear sets. Pro-wins are great but uber expensive and modification needed. PTW's are the shit and if I had the money I'd get one in a heartbeat (I was set on getting one after Macguyver let me fire his after a game).

Thanks for all your responses guys.

[Danke]

Originally Posted by Flatlander

So everyone's still confused about what I'm still really trying to find out. I am NOT planning on buying a cast monkey metal mechbox and using it in my gun. What I AM planning on is looking into is buying one and having an exact 1:1 replica of the mechbox CNC'd out of a much stronger material (stainless steel or high strength aluminum).

So why stop at 1? Why not 100 If it's that much of a bump them more folks would want one.

You might as well start with the best. Once you've got the copy up and running you can sell the mule and recover your funds.

[kmsakura]

this has happened before :P. if i remember correctly the cost was going to be around 500 per mechbox with the 3d scanning and machine paths done for free. never mind the fact that it had to be done on machine down time because prices would aproach 800+ if they were to machine a mechbox while running the machine under normal hours. i could be wrong though.