upgrades - different brands

[JohnnyDo]

ok guys, i'm just curious if there is a signifigant difference in brands for different upgrades such as beariings, tappet plates, piston heads etc. Does systema really hold the torch to the other guys, are they all equal get the cheapest one, or is it best to mix and match?

I''ve tried to look for reviews comparing different brands and getting the general idea on which one is better but I just don't see any definative answeres out there. If it matters I want to work on my ICS MP5 SD5.

next question, is it better to get a full tune-up kit offered by guarder and systema or get the peices individually? I don't want to go cheap, but I don't want to waste money that will give me no added benifit in durability, ROF, or FPS.

Thanks

[BC_K]

Hurricane Full Tune Up Kits. All the goodies you could want, for just $75!!!

[ILLusion]

there IS a difference. From what I've seen, increases in prices results in better materials and better manufacturing process. The final products on more expensive parts are typically finished much nicer than cheaper alternatives.

Also, regarding performance, there is a difference between brands. Personally, I look for increased velocity consistency first and reduced battery wear second when I pick the parts for my guns and ALL my guns have a Frankenstein mish-mash of gearbox parts.

I've done a lot of quantitative testing on a lot of parts, and you definitely can't go "wrong" with any of the FTK's available. I haven't done any durability tests, but I have noticed that Systema parts consistently have higher consistency than their cheaper counterparts.

[mcguyver]

use ics parts only in an ics mechbox. they make upgrade parts. bushings are smaller inner race than marui compatible bushings and ics gears will wobble in marui sized bushings and marui compatible gears are too tight and won't turn in ics bushings. ics tappet is larger than marui tappet and they are cross-compatible. selector plate, semi-auto sway bar and spring guide are also NOT compatible. use ics oily brass bushings, keep your gears, get ics steel ver II spring guide and get piston, piston head and cylinder head from whomever you like. or you could just get a new mechbox but you will have to use the ics selector plate.

[Kid]

Wha..?
Is there anything compatable?
Like.. any Systema parts compatable? and the Systema is compatable, is it not?

Also, the front handguard, is that compatable?
The threads on the barrel, for the flash hider, what are the threads? 14- or 14+?

And of cource, do G&P midcaps work? I just ordered 4... and a Systema barrel...

Sorry to jack the thread...

[mcguyver]

barrel is fine and mags are fine. threads are different pitch as my marui flashider won't fit on my ics. i don't advise people to do 400+ fps upgrades on ics m4 as the split mechbox has limits. you can do bushings and such (ics ones) and they make complete upper mech box kits with an m120 for easy changeout. but for guys who want to buy a gun and are planning a shitload of upgrades before they even get it, this is NOT the gun for you. get a tm. the mp5 series is a little different. same proprietary parts (mostly) but more upgrade options. handguard is different than marui but i haven't tried to interchange them (what for i don't know). thread is left hand on flashider btw.

[JohnnyDo]

Illusion:

can you rate the folow brands for quality and consistancy (1-10 on Guarder, systema, FTK and stock gears on an ICS gun so that I can make a educated choice for price/performance. or does this vary to much part to part to give an accurate performance summery?


The end result that I want with this gun:
- 300 fps max (M90 varried compression spring ??)
- very good shot consistancy
- quiet mechbox as best as I can (silent piston head, ball bearings not bushings etc.)
- accuracy
- stupid fast ROF (high speed gears and if I find a used eg1000 motor down the road)
- battery life and price is of no concern to me. Batteries are cheap and I can save up longer to get the job done. If I need to spend $300 so be it .. as long as the above results is what I get ... I'm good to go.

I'd rather take a few months to get things to where I want them then go middle ground and regret it later. i know quality is expensive, and goign cheap is useually not worth it. I have no intent on keeping any of the internals of the mechbox as this gun is very used. the gears all show signs of wear, the selector plate is on it's last leg and hte tappet plate is screwed becuase somone else had a "golden screwdriver" (CB and Ham radio guys will know what I mean). Bottom line I got a gun for cheap, now I want to make this little boys gun into a CQB BFG boom stick hehe.

Oh, I have read and heard different opnions on hopup buckings .. there is stock, hard and silicone which is made by Guarder I think. I tried to search but I want a bottom line as to what is the advantages or drawbacks of each type or if there is a definitive holly grail that I can buy that is just better then the rest. kn 6.04 barrel will be used in this gun and a max of 300 fps.

thanks guys, you are all a big help. I wish there was a toms ahrdware guide to performance parts for airsoft guns. The only thing I can go by (from what I have read so far) is what forum users say or talk around the field. So far I have seen very little actaul testing of parts from different manufactures to compare one to the other and the differences between them.

[Kid]

Wow... this guy wants the same thing as me, EXACT, except I went a bit cheap and got a Systema barrel, not sure of quality difference.

I'm interested to see what this would cost now.

[JohnnyDo]

cost to me is not a big issue. not that i'm rich, just i'd rather save and go good then skimp out and buy cheap and be dissapointed down the road.

[ILLusion]

It would be too much (at this time) to go into detail on which is best for what part... also, all my empirical tests were done on one and at MOST, two samples of the same part. It's very possible that the same product from a different manufacturing batch 3 years down the road will perform different as the original casting moulds wear down, changes are made, etc.
Also, different gearboxes, different guns, and different combinations of parts can yield different results. Most differences are so miniscule, that you would hardly notice a difference unless ALL of your shots gave you some form of digital readout on various statistics.

The only thing I can comment on is construction/finish quality and engineering ingenuity from best to worst:

- Phoenix (currently only have gearsets available, I don't have any long term tests done yet to be able to provide durability results)
- Prometheus
- Systema
- Angel
- Guarder

I would consider the above to be "premium" products. Very good and actually give greater performance than stock Marui parts.

The following parts, I would consider to be equal to, or worse than Marui:
- G&P
- ICS
- Classic Army <-- GETS A BIG FAT ZERO FROM ME. YOU COULDN'T PAY ME TO USE THEIR STUFF, UNLESS IT WAS IN *YOUR* GUN. Even still, I would highly advise you against it.

Those are just my findings from handling/using those products. I've used some of those products longer than others. Beyond that, I don't have much experience with many other parts.



*note: This above information is based purely on personal opinion stemming from the following characteristics:
- build quality (presence of flash or other moulding anomolies, sharp or generally unclean edges, etc)
- features different from other brands





Picking a more silent setup over a noisier setup can sometimes (and usually will) reduce shot consistency, although not by a seriously appreciable amount. Differences I've found are within 5fps average deviation.


I could tell you what parts are good in my guns for my purposes from the parts sample which I had access to, but I can't promise you'll get the same results. You may get similar, but no system can ever be exactly the same once you start getting down to the little numbers. The information that I tell you below is just to give you an idea of what I use and the results I received after testing every single part that I could get my hands on for v6 gearboxes at that time.

I can say with confidence that the quietest setup I've used so far is helical gears with 7mm BEARINGS (not bushings) (a new gearbox will be needed for that), and an Angel silent head set with bearings on it (which you'll have to extract from another bearing piston head set.)

The best shot consistency that I've recorded is on my P90 with these parts:
Spring: KM 100M
Piston: Systema Polycarbonate (red, old style)
Piston Head: Systema Aluminum with bearings
Cyliner Head: Systema
Cylinder: KM TN Taper
Nozzle: Systema
Spring Guide: Systema v2
Inner Barrel Systema BS (335mm)

Tested at 24 degrees Celsius using Airsoft Elite 0.25g BBs, a 20 shot sample yielded an average deviation of 0.6345fps and a standard deviation of 0.7522fps.

[JohnnyDo]

Thank you so much man. This is exatly the info that I was searching for. A definative this is generally better then the next review from a first hands on experianced person.

next question, how much difference in noise is the helical gears compared to flat gears? A matter of 1 or 2 db or much much more at >6 db

also is there that much of a difference between the angle silent head and the systema red silent head?

thanks again for your time in answering my questions

[ILLusion]

umm... i can't really answer that question. it's a subjective sound. the tonal qualities are different. and I don't have any instruments to measure the sound. I just know the high pitched "sewing machine" isn't as bad with helical gears.

The difference between the angel silent head set and the systema... i'm not sure how you want me to answer that. are you talking about how they're designed? They're both designed on completely different concepts.

[JohnnyDo]

Angle Vs Systema:

I was aiming that questions towards the sound they make and how much of a difference there is between them. I relize this is very subjective, but right now your subjective answers are alot better then what I can read as the description on any retail web site hehe.

basically i'm looking for some insite as to why you put the Angle silent head ahead of the systema set. Is it becuase it makes a lower tone that is more esily muffled by say foam around the mechbox, is it desinged better, does it just plain make less noise, do you liek the color better, etc.

[ILLusion]

ohhh.. okay.

yeah, the angel one is definitely quieter. I can't give you a decibel value, but i'd say greater than 3db decrease (based on the fact that a 3dB difference equals a halving or doubling in perceived volume.)

Also, I was able to witness some empirical testing between the Angel and Systema silent head sets that showed the Angel was much softer on the gearbox.

I chose the Angel because... it really is quieter. and because it's safer on my gearbox. The build quality is close to Systema. It is also a simpler, but more effective design. I wonder how durable it is in the long run.

[mcguyver]

actually perceived volume doubling by humans is 10dB. electrically doubling is 3 dB (at least that's what they taught in EIA courses years ago)