How Long Should a Milsim Be - 18hr or 12hr

[Brian McIlmoyle]

One of the best milsim events I have ever been to was 2 hours long.. it's been 2 years since that OP and those who were there still talk about it.

one of the worst was 18 hours long and felt like sticking a pencil in your eye for 18 hours straight.

Duration of the event is not material to satisfaction.

[Red Dot]

Just a quick note as I have now been to couple 12+ games this year is all the "make sure you're prepared" comments. As a new person never attending anything like this in the past that comment is like telling someone they should know how to swim even though they have never been in water.

As far as I'm concerned start small and work yourself up as long as you're still enjoying yourself. I personally find 6-8 hours of flatout action to be awesome right now.

[lurkingknight]

people need to define milsim better...

What constitutes milsim to folks?

unit based deployment and tactics in force on force engagements, where you live and die by squad tactics? with organized squad structures and comms and chain of command? With limitations on uniform and gear, rules for fire discipline, etc.

or

highly thought out choose your own adventure type logic immersion scenarios that unfold differently depending on objectives failed or achieved, based on strict role playing RoEs, that also require strict chain of command, unit deployments etc that may or may not result in force on force action depending on how your commanders choose to play their game?

cause those are 2 different types of military styled simulation, and it seems that people both outside that spectrum and inside aren't clear on what is what.

I've encountered players who say the latter is a bunch of bullshit so the former must be as well.

On the other hand you have players saying the latter is just skirmish.

I see 3 pretty distinct categories here.

Guys who skrim will probably like milsim combat... but maybe they don't care for playing roles in a scenario. Guys who like to play a role and fire maybe 3 shots in 24 hours might not like running around rolling in muck to get those kills and reloading lots.

Guys who play the more shooting style are likely not going to last longer because they're exerting a lot more energy with more action, whereas guys who play the scenario sims will have more energy because they're not running around for most of the duration of the game.

They're different. People like variety.

Game organizers should be more clear on what they're presenting to gather the proper playerbase for their games.

Players should understand what they're signing up for and not piss off halfway through a set hour commitment. You sign up for a 12 or 18 hour game... make sure you account for the before and after logistics of the game weekend. It doesn't mean you fuck off at hour 18-X because you have to drive home or because you're losing. Account for those hours and deal with it.


Honestly I don't believe it's an issue with game length. There are plenty of players in the community that demonstrate they can last x hours + whatever it takes to get to and from the field.

It's a problem with organizers and players with the wrong expectations because of poor planning or poor commitment due to poor planning.

[ThunderCactus]

Could start the hardcore guys off at night and have the 12hr guys join them in the morning?

[Ricochet]

There are some great points here, but it all comes down to two things; the complexity of the game, and the attendees.

First of all, a 24 hour, or endurance game, is for players who want that experience. Stop inviting people who quit. The best games I attended were invite only. If you're going to have an open invitation game, make sure to outline the expectations of the players. If you show up to someone's game for just a short stint, and then you and your group leave, possibly unbalancing the game, then I'd be sure to never invite you back again. Even a game that has some kinks in it can be saved by the players rolling with the punches. It can be the best or worst planned op in history, but having the right type of players out there is what will make or break it. Who's been to a half assed op and had a great time? Who's been to an extravagantly planned one that ended up ruined by just a few bad apples? Often times focus and herding is an issue at larger/longer ops. It can often be better to limit the total amount of players. I'm just sayin', it's hard to corral three-hundred people in the right directions all the time.

Secondly, plan for multi-objectives, and things to fight over. A single piece of land should never be the games prime objective, or as mentioned above, it all turns into a skirmish. Key capture points are great from a tactical standpoint, but people and objects to hunt for are better. You can accomplish this with intel throughout play. And of course, always have a backup set. Sometimes one group gets traction early and may run over the opposition. If all relative objectives are finished early, have a plan to move on. Plan your game from daylight to daylight times. Starting a game at night only works if it is strictly a night game. People get mentally prepared to do sims, especially endurance ones. If your game starts around dinner time, the human body is already in shutdown mode. They're getting hungry, tired, their bodies are exhausting heat, etc. Have the fight on well before this happens to keep people rocking all night. Also plan for possible breaks or lulls, just in case some people do need some shuteye. Give your players a reason to pick a fight with the opposing team. Give the other team a truck or something, and tell the opposing team they can have it if they can take it. You want these two sides to not want to leave each other alone. Midnight hits while they try and rack up, or scouting and raids can be great ways to keep up the competition level. Prizes for winning battles would work too. Don't raffle that shit off afterwards, give it out to a team that accomplishes something. "If you boys can capture X by midnight, then hot dogs for your squad...

Other things to consider like, where is the op being held? Some places aren't good for long periods, others aren't good for at night, and others can be quite grueling or dangerous. Have food, water, and ammo available for purchase. Players and teams do forget things, it does happen. However, the most hardcore of hardcore won't make it far without those things, abd it won't matter if their home is two hours, or twenty hours away; they'll be leaving. Admin strength is key as well. Be prepared to deal with the bad types quickly and efficiently. A few assclowns can ruin it for everyone else. Make sure your admins are fair and sportsmanlike minded, but also have their ass kickin' boots tied up tight. On that note, don't be afraid to ban players and teams from returning, especially those with a shitty history. There are teams out there, that I won't mention on here, that people will avoid. "If they're going, then we aren't"; sort of thing. If your running the game, then have your people devided into both sides a little to keep players and the game focused.

There's several other things to consider, but I'll leave you all with this one. If you don't intend on playing through, then do not attend to begin with. Endurance games are for people who want that sort of thing. "Also, if people are supposed to be hunting/fighting you, abd you're in your car in the safe area sleeping, then you're a complete $&@#%¥, abd should have your eyes gouged out!"

[Kingsix]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Could start the hardcore guys off at night and have the 12hr guys join them in the morning?

That's not a bad ideal... it'll be like a wave of fresh reinforcements

[The Keiichione]

Originally Posted by Kingsix

That's not a bad ideal... it'll be like a wave of fresh reinforcements

There was WWII OP last july where we did just that.

The germans where hold up in a "town" and the allied had to do a night recon followed by an attack the following day.

We were 8 allied doing a night recon, marking bunkers, strong points, enemy resistence from 2200 to 0130.

After that, Everyone went to sleep. We went at our "camp site" and the germans stayed in the village but the game was off. At 0900, the rest of the allied/Axis forces showed up.

We had one hell of a time and nobody quited.

[ThunderCactus]

It's great getting the night game out of the way right off the bat when all the guys that wanna do it are ready for it.
On the other hand, it's great when you can last till 5am after already having played for 12 lol

[Gish]

We've been running 17hr games out here that have worked out really well.
Having planned and participated in games ranging from 1 hour to 36 hours in my 13 years playing this format hits the right spots.
Game starts @ 10PM and goes until 5PM next day. Allows long term players to indulge in the night time portion then we have daytime players come join us at 10AM the next day.
We've found that players tend to play the night portion until around 4AM ish giving a good solid 5-6 hours of play then a minor downtime until 8am.
For the most part not many people tend to drop dead from this format as it has a natural rest time and when daytime players come to reinforce allows the full time players to take a small break/eat/etc.

The biggest factor to any long format game is ensuring that commanders are on the ball and properly rotating/resting folks as best as they can. It's sometimes tough to tell your average airsofter "Hey take an hours break" when all they want to do is go-go-go. and think that they are going to miss out on something. Those type of players are usually the ones who gas out the earliest so game organizers sort of need to take a bit of that into account.

[ThunderCactus]

As per red dot's comment;
In manitoba, CT made most of the keystone games invite only. If you were a noob and if it was your first big milsim, you HAD TO attend a 12 hour training game before hand, which was basically just wolfpack marching you through the bush for 6 hours with sporadic contact and then a night game.

It was fantastic training for the newer people, and they made it through the 24hr game. Unfortunately the people who really needed the training never showed up and always quit like 2 hours into the night game -_-

[HackD]

Originally Posted by Rabbit

Lets face it - its no mystery that 18 hour milsims seem to be too long for the average shooter.

I'm also hard pressed to believe that those who are the drivers stay up all night without catching 40 winks at some point - and when you do the math, that can take numbers out of the game for however long.

Also - for the hardcore roughnecks who give it their all, all night long - nothing is more frustrating than finding someone to actually shoot when you're on the prowl and 'aint shit in sight.

Which leads me to my overall question which might help some hosts out(to which there are few these days!! I really miss some of the older ones, but that's a different subject all together)

How long should a milsim be? What would work better for people?

I've been to 12 hour milsims that were near flawless, it was brilliant. Im all for it and it prevents a lot of the mishaps and drop outs and any of the other shit that comes with 18hr or longer. IMO

Feel free to discuss and talk shop.

So many variables, and people attend milsims/mil-skirms with varying degree of motivation, and levels of preparedness.

My own level of experience is admittedly, greatly limited. Trying to last the full term of the event, has been the goal itself, for myself, with varying degrees of success, the past ~2 years attending a handful of events.

In that limited experience, i'd say 12 hours is my own limit - with rest, or not.

I've seen others, in much better physical condition, "Live fast and die young" very early into the game - whether through not pacing themselves, or simply not being prepared for the conditions.

The two mil-skirmish events i attended this year - I had a great time.. but there were limitations in relation to length of event.

The first - Op: No Nods - I simply crashed and burned after being more or less up for 22 hours at around the 05:00 hrs mark (including travel time to Picton), and getting ill in the process. I discovered in this Op, that an 18 hrs event is simply not realistic _for me_. Others burned out, far far earlier. If i'd stayed longer, i would have been getting home Sunday evening, instead of late Sunday morning - thank goodness, for the relatively quiet roads to get back home on, in order to crash in my own bed.. I ain't been that tired since driving down to South Carolina in a single 16 hr stretch, and that was almost 20 years ago..

The second - Op: Niagara - even given that i severely fucked one of my legs up (even more) in a trip and fall 20 minutes into the game, was a much more realistic goal to attain at ~12 hrs duration, albeit at reduced engagement. Much closer to home to drive somewhat tired and beat-up also, once all was said and done.

As said, it all comes down to highly individual circumstances, preparedness, capabilities, and personal commitment and mindset to see things through.

While i will likely always be pretty much a once a month skirmisher, for the milsim/mil-skirmish style events that i will occasionally attend in the future, 12 hours appears to be the sweet spot.

I will never be hardcore milsim material.

[CR0M]

Originally Posted by docholiday

Athena II was 20 hours and an absolutely awesome game with everybody (or close to that) fighting till the end.

This game was fantastic because objectives were going right up until the end.
Fuzzhead and game control put effort into this game and it showed.

That game is a perfect example that if you keep the players engaged in anything, (regardless of the player pool) they will stick it out right til the end.

Alot of hosts will do a 24 hour game, the first 8 hours will be a milsim, the rest ends up being a skirmish, and then they wonder why players dont stick around until the end. lol.

12 hours, 24 hours, it doesnt matter, aslong as there is effort put into the game.

I lean towards 24 just because alot of us dont like the idea of driving 3 + hours for a 12 hour game. But depending on the game and host that doesnt matter that much.

[Rabbit]

Hrmm. So really to sum a lot of this up the onis really sounds to fall back on the host and their staff.

Being a vet of many 18hr sims a lot of them did feel like they fizzed out of story line and objectives around the 8-10 hour mark. Obviously there is the select few games that continued to bring the awesome all through out. Kudos to fuzzhead and the thamesville games for that.

Maybe hosts should start small in relation to length and focus on keeping players busy before trying something longer. It would actually probably build a good returning player base as well.

Fuck a lot of good reads in here though. Heres to the rest of 2014 onto 2015 in hopes that games stop plateauing.

My opinions are also limited to Ontario games but i think the lack of hosts has a lot to do with it. I think we maybe have 5-6 people hosting regular skirms and maybe less for the more reputable milsims.

[Ricochet]

Well, I think there was a point in time where players and hosts just wanted say that they had done a twenty-four hour game. Just playing airsoft for twenty-four hours does nothing. Especially when you can play for six hours and accomplish the same things. Twenty-four hours are supposed to be a true test. It doesn't really matter how short or long a game is, as long as it's filled with the right objectives and the right people.

Also: RIP Wolfpack games (Keystone & Cold Front)

[Janus]

I put this notice at the beginning of the event page for my next large game. It's a summary of my feelings on the topic.

"Milsim; a dirty word for an organizer. Milsim is an aspect brought to the game by the players themselves. The host exists to create the*situation and the players exist to deal with that situation. I believe that HOW they do it is up to them and I never waste my time enforcing a 'milsim' approach... I simply arrange games to allow the teams with the better leadership and organization to dominate."

Basically, you want milsim? Bring it with you. It comes from the players to act as a unit. The host can only provide a field and scenario. Anyone who bitches about not having enough milsim from hosts isn't looking at the players.

I am not going to tell people how to act in a game as a host. If they want to dress like Rambo and run around with a nerf knife I'm just as fine with that as I am with seeing a uniform unit with organized fire teams out there.

Just, you know, the team that works better together tends to rule.