How Long Should a Milsim Be - 18hr or 12hr

[The Legacy]

Ressurection post, I see. :P

Either way, I figured I'd weigh in; 18 hours is a nice balanced number; any less and it doesn't have the day-to-night-to-day feel of milsims, and any more and you risk putting players out of commission.

Rather, I think of it in a different light: To start, at Nightfalls 2 and 3, I powered through the full 18 hours, though I took times to take breaks and to pace myself. However, at Nightfall 3, my way of dealing with squad fatigue (of those who didn't bail... o.o) was to hold up in the two-story inside an unlit room with a flag in it, and to let the guys sleep. They set up a metal magazine at the door, designed to tip over at a slight movement. This arrangement let them sleep with confidence, as they didn't have to fret too much of people sneaking in to change the flag, or to attack them unawares. It also allowed them to contribute to the fight while doing absolutely nothing. It's strategy like this that makes 18 hour milsims work, but unfortunately most people's ideas are to sleep at the HQ/spawn in such games, and wait until morning. That usually leads to tears later on.

[Metalsynth]

Most people can't handle type 2 fun and that is why most are lost to the concept.
http://www.backcountry.com/explore/type-ii-fun

[Zack The Ripper]

MilSim West in the U.S. hosts many 40 hour OPs that go without hitches or hangups with player participation through the entire event. This is because the player participation mixed with a large staff and we'll developed game structure keeps things rolling the entire time.

The biggest problem is in Canadian "MilSim" most people go balls out from game start and burn themselves out by midnight when there might still be 8-12 hours left in the event. Longer events require pacing and well organized structure at a staffing level as well as a command level. Command structures need to be tight to ensure squad rotation is occurring and that their players are not falling to attrition. Forced rest, being properly supplied, using good old team work, and actually doing some real preparation prior to the event is what push the envelope to get people through to the end.

Not to toot the MilSim West horn too much, but they have a required kit list for each team that is given well in advance of the event. On game day they have full kit inspections where you lay all your required gear out for a checklist. People missing these required pieces of equipment/gear simply don't get to play because in the eyes of the game staff they aren't serious enough about doing such a large event if they cannot bring simple things on a list to last them the event. It is a time consuming process, but they have a good staff and they feel it is necessary to ensure they are only letting the truly committed players into the event. I think more stern guidelines like this would at least help eliminate the not so serious players from clogging up a limited roster for an event leaving room for the serious MilSim players to get those spots. Obviously for MSW, they have a very large game staff, the event is much more expensive than the $50-65 events commonplace in Canada, and as such they can afford to have an elitist attitude in requiring these items from each player while supplying everyone with counted, limited ammo as well as MREs and water. While I don't expect any MilSim events north of the border to supply food and comforts to everyone, I think having a list of required kit that each player must have on game day or they cannot play is a start at getting people in the right mind set for these events.

People might say that is elitist, but if we are talking MilSim, that is the elite version of airsoft events, meant for the "elite" players trying to put their skills and endurance to the test. This is not to say that a serious player who has never done a MilSim and wants to try one cannot attend. This is simply a good way at ensuring those newcomers to MilSim know what they 100% must have on game day, as well as what to expect.

Some here may be aware of the Deadfall events Brian here on the forums puts on every fall. Thus last event basically started on Friday evening at about 10pm and ended at 3am on Sunday morning. This event had a small number of players, however nobody dropped out of the event at all. Not one person. The only reason the game did not go until 10am on Sunday is because of the terrible weather and temperatures putting several players in pre-hypothermic states, and this was not due to unpreparedness, simply due to the very harsh elements everyone was playing in, being the beginning of October in eastern Ontario not that far from Lake Ontario. This event saw a tightly ran command structure that ensured the preparedness of every player well in advance of the event, and the event structure was not set around "run at the enemy, shoot some people, die, respawn, start over", it was designed around true MilSim with patrols, skulking through dense brush ten feet per minute, and use of Recon elements that were literally in the field in the pouring rain for extended periods of time. BUT, everyone was prepared for this well in advance and designed their kit around their specific roles, which is something that people just don't seem willing to do in other events. As such this event set the bar much higher in my eyes for the potential of MilSim.

It's the player attitude and preparedness, or lack thereof, that causes long events to fall apart, not the length of the event itself. Sorry, it's just the truth.

[EOD Steve]

^ good post.

[CR0M]

lots of good points have already been touched on in this thread. Id like to point out another one.

Alot of players wear too much gear. Theyre running around with 20lbs of stuff that they dont need to be wearing all the time, and are worn out too early.

Gear down, last longer. Every oz adds up.

I've got a couple of plate carriers that I love the look of, but I know I can stretch my endurance with a RRV instead. When Im building my gun, I go as light as possible for the same reason.

[FirestormX]

^ Good post about the good post.

[Piney]

Originally Posted by Zack The Ripper

MilSim West in the U.S. hosts many 40 hour OPs that go without hitches or hangups with player participation through the entire event. This is because the player participation mixed with a large staff and we'll developed game structure keeps things rolling the entire time.

The biggest problem is in Canadian "MilSim" most people go balls out from game start and burn themselves out by midnight when there might still be 8-12 hours left in the event. Longer events require pacing and well organized structure at a staffing level as well as a command level. Command structures need to be tight to ensure squad rotation is occurring and that their players are not falling to attrition. Forced rest, being properly supplied, using good old team work, and actually doing some real preparation prior to the event is what push the envelope to get people through to the end.

Not to toot the MilSim West horn too much, but they have a required kit list for each team that is given well in advance of the event. On game day they have full kit inspections where you lay all your required gear out for a checklist. People missing these required pieces of equipment/gear simply don't get to play because in the eyes of the game staff they aren't serious enough about doing such a large event if they cannot bring simple things on a list to last them the event. It is a time consuming process, but they have a good staff and they feel it is necessary to ensure they are only letting the truly committed players into the event. I think more stern guidelines like this would at least help eliminate the not so serious players from clogging up a limited roster for an event leaving room for the serious MilSim players to get those spots. Obviously for MSW, they have a very large game staff, the event is much more expensive than the $50-65 events commonplace in Canada, and as such they can afford to have an elitist attitude in requiring these items from each player while supplying everyone with counted, limited ammo as well as MREs and water. While I don't expect any MilSim events north of the border to supply food and comforts to everyone, I think having a list of required kit that each player must have on game day or they cannot play is a start at getting people in the right mind set for these events.

People might say that is elitist, but if we are talking MilSim, that is the elite version of airsoft events, meant for the "elite" players trying to put their skills and endurance to the test. This is not to say that a serious player who has never done a MilSim and wants to try one cannot attend. This is simply a good way at ensuring those newcomers to MilSim know what they 100% must have on game day, as well as what to expect.

Some here may be aware of the Deadfall events Brian here on the forums puts on every fall. Thus last event basically started on Friday evening at about 10pm and ended at 3am on Sunday morning. This event had a small number of players, however nobody dropped out of the event at all. Not one person. The only reason the game did not go until 10am on Sunday is because of the terrible weather and temperatures putting several players in pre-hypothermic states, and this was not due to unpreparedness, simply due to the very harsh elements everyone was playing in, being the beginning of October in eastern Ontario not that far from Lake Ontario. This event saw a tightly ran command structure that ensured the preparedness of every player well in advance of the event, and the event structure was not set around "run at the enemy, shoot some people, die, respawn, start over", it was designed around true MilSim with patrols, skulking through dense brush ten feet per minute, and use of Recon elements that were literally in the field in the pouring rain for extended periods of time. BUT, everyone was prepared for this well in advance and designed their kit around their specific roles, which is something that people just don't seem willing to do in other events. As such this event set the bar much higher in my eyes for the potential of MilSim.

It's the player attitude and preparedness, or lack thereof, that causes long events to fall apart, not the length of the event itself. Sorry, it's just the truth.

This.

[Ricochet]

Zack and Crom, I totally agree, but I have some additions people need to remember. Being up in Canada I have witnessed more than a few attitudes and behaviours in our airsoft community that are commonplace in our society. They make it really difficult to host one of these games seriously.

First off, let's talk about elitism. Elitism is an attitude and a way of being, not specific set of instructions or dynamics. For example, just because something discludes someone from attending and event, or something doesn't cater to them, doesn't mean it's elitist. People have to remember that YOU are strictly YOUR problem, nobody owes you shit. Example; you and your friends are planning a trip up Everest, so your friend in a wheelchair calls you an elitist... See the issue? First off all, it's impossible to understand how frusterating his life may be, but that's more of a reason to live life to the fullest while you have the use of your legs and not to live your life for someone else. So, here's how it effects airsoft; you plan a game set around 'x' area, with 'x' gear requirements, and 'x' timeframe, etc. Now someone who doesn't have the budget, the required gear, the time, the physical fitness level, or doesn't like that type of play style, calling you an elitist. Same shit! They can't do it or don't want to, therefore you're an elitist. Right? Wrong, so wrong. People need to be prepared and follow the rules, end of discussion. Elite and elitism are two different things. Could you imagine a reservist calling a special forces member and elitist because they passed the training, but he couldn't for whatever reason? No I can't either.

There are Milsims out there that last over a week. Of course there are rest periods and food, etc, but it's like this; after a few hours of sleep, you get your sorry ass up, slog on your cold and wet gear, eat some shitty food quick, then get back out there and kick ass all day, rinse and repeat. Don't go to an event if you aren't planning on pushing through the whole time. No it isn't okay to find an excuse. I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'm sore, I'm bored, I'm wet, etc, don't cut it. Barring injury or extreme weather conditions, it's pretty much go go go. I've seen extreme rain storms destroy a game, I've also seen them just make players hunker down for a bit to wait it out, but the best is when one squad puts on their ponchos to keep their gun and upper body fairly dry, then hits the other team using the storm as a surprise attack.

Let's talk about gear now. I don't really care what you're into, but if I had some advice for you it'd be to purchase gear that fits you and effectively works for what you're doing, which is airsoft. It's great that you want to look like a Marine or whatever, but those guys wear heavy gear, for long long periods, in forty plus degrees of heat, with a full bladder, real ammo and ballistic plates. You don't even have one percent of the training, at least likely. Even if you are physically fit, you're still going to go way longer and be more effective with proper gear over what looks cool to you. My old airsoft load-out was over sixty pounds fully loaded with ammo and water, etc. I could wear that for twenty-four hours straight standing on my head. Ya know what though? Now I can go longer and be more effective with lighter, better gear. Buy yourself proper gear and get your ass in shape. Endurance games are for athletes and those with strong will, that's the whole point. Push on through or be a little bitch. There's always day skirmishes abd there nothing wrong with that. This doesn't mean that you want to buy flimsy crap, but it does mean that you will have to carry all of your ammo, food, water, equipment, etc, and you should carry it intelligently. You don't need to be carrying anything that isn't necessary. As stated above, every ounce adds up. You need three liters of water and rain gear, you don't need two pistols, a sniper rifle, a ruck sack full of God-knows-what, etc. You may be thinking now that "hey! Maybe I should go and get one of those tactical diapers, that'd solve my weight issues, right?". Wrong! Here's a base list of what you MAY need at an endurance game; a reliable gun plus enough batteries, gas, ammo, not to mention optics, magazines, etc, to get you through. Also a reliable secondary in case you find yourself going into a small structure or in an extremely close range engagement. You'll need enough meals to get you through the alotted time. Remember you burn more fuel when your playing than just day to day, and you need to stay fueled. Water is heavy and you should carry at least a few liters, with a plan to refill several times. Stay hydrated. You'll likely need a map of the area, a flashlight, NVGs if you have them, rain or a cold layer, quality BDUs and boots, your rig and your sub-load, a hat to protect your head and neck, radio and comms equipment, a first aid kit, maybe even a helmet, your eyewear, a sling, etc, etc, etc, etc. It will all add up to being heavy, so your gear needs to carry it comfortably and intelligently as possible.

No game goes off without a few hitches, especially the more players you have. It's up to the players to assist the host in keeping things running smoothly and getting the game back on track. If you don't play with sportsmanship and integrity, then things will go south. If you give up easily at the first sign of adversity, then things will go south. If all the players, admins, game hosts, etc, don't do everything reasonable to work together, then things will go south. Full stop, period! I've been to so many games where players quit early, but what you have to remember is doing that unbalances the teams severely. No one likes getting their butts whooped, and more often than not this causes players to quit. If one team can't regroup and work together, they are dead in the water. I've been to games where the enemy team numbered over one-hundred players and they were boxed into a tiny area, surrounded on all sides. All of their respawns and CCPs had lineups at them, and if they let go of the rope or took off their dead rag, they instantly got shot by about ten or twenty of the one hundred plus guys that had them surrounded. The game was over, no if's, and's, or but's. So what did they do? Did they bitch out? Did they quit? Did they throw a tantrum? Nope! They surrendered. We all went back to the safe area shaking hands and congratulating both teams, we had laughs and told stories, and the admins reworked the game. We all got back out there and had at 'er again, the other team with renewed command and doubled effort. I've been to games where one teams numbers doubled or more the other team, and a bunch of their players quit because they couldn't get organized. The smaller team kicked the hell out of them most of the time. So strong command and comms are hugely important at large games. That being said, I don't think anyone should be allowed to attend one of these games without a reliable radio and quality headset. Not only is clear comms essential to team success, but for tracking down lost players and basic safety. Remember, if you're playing for 'x' number of hours, then you need 'x' number of hours of batteries to last the whole thing.

Games up here are not actually that strict, but people still bitch about the little things. One game organizer tried to throw a game that was MULTICAM versus woodland. All that had to match were your arms and legs, so teams would be easily identifiable. There was so much bitching on the forums it was ridiculous. If it's not for you, then don't go. Don't nag at a game host because they are not catering to you directly. Strict gear requirements are commonplace elsewhere. Also they're probably one of the best ways to ensure game efficiency. Personally I'd love to have gear inspections before heading out onto the field. I think a lot of this stems from two areas. Firstly, we don't have the population, so getting enough true and interested people to attend and stick it out is harder. Secondly is this attitude of entitlement that people get. You're told all your life that your opinions matter, that you're special, your schools aren't allowed to fail you anymore, etc, etc, etc. Then once you get out into the real world it isn't actually like that. Grow the fuck up! You're only entitled to have an opinion, it doesn't make it valid. It's your own personal responsibility to prepare mentally, physically and have the appropriate gear for a sim, no one is making easier just for you, Ya little bitch. No one can make you go, so if it's not for you keep your teeth together. Moaning about how you shouldn't have to carry a radio, how you shouldn't have to buy specific camo, or how a game bans or limits high-caps makes you look like a big baby. It does not however, even in the slightest, make the organizer and attending players elitist.

The length of a game is totally irrelevant, from one minute to a month straight. If you're unpreparec or unwilling, it isn't for you, period. This is why so many of the better games are going to invite only. Only players who are willing to put out the bare minimum get invited back. This is also why so many large scale events turn into train wrecks. All of the bitchers, cheaters, quitters, chair-softers, etc. Take all of those players, stuff then into a cannon and fire them at a stone wall, at close range...

Mind set, attitude and intent has a huge impact on the games flow as well. I know myself, Brian and many others have pointed this out several times; airsoft is technically anything that involves an airsoft gun. Airsoft is a very loosely used term, kind of like milsim, but much worse. When someone says "airsoft" what do you picture? Well whatever it is, it's different than the guy next to you. Just because it involves airsoft guns and shooting only means they have a few similarities, not that they are the least bit the same. Let me explain. Some players want to do a role-playing kind of thing or LARP thing, for others it stops at dressing like a Navy SEAL, or pretending that they are a soldier. For others it's personal interest, they dress like its World War 2 or Vietnam, sometimes for flavor and sometimes for reinactment. Many like to break down boundaries and get into the Sci-Fi or fantasy thing, they'll go completely off the wall, or will copy their favorite movie or video game characters, dressing like a character from Halo or something. The most common group stick to the Call of Duty or moderm military stuff, etc. Not all of these groups comingle well, because even though they appear to be doing the same thing, they really aren't. If your mindset is too far gone, it can mess with the flow or the intent of the game. Some groups meld together seamlessly, like Call of Duty players and the modern military players, etc. Well usually anyways. There are even events that are totally open to all, and it doesn't matter how you play or dress. Here's another example; I'm at a game with just over a hundred players a few years back. Everyone there is decked out in modern military gear for one reason or another, except a few guys who are just starting out, so their gear isn't quite there yet. No big deal though, it's only a six hour game, so you really only need a reliable gun, ammo, proper eyewear and footwear, etc. Anyways, it's a sea of Modern-ish military and related. During the safety speech this guy holds up a giant broadsword and asks "can I use this!?". He may as well have been wearing a red clown suit and expecting to prance around the field slapping people with a huge a dildo. Everyone was stunned, like "really dude!?". He's there to be He-Man or Conan or something, not to compete against like minded players. I myself, along with many others view airsoft as a tactical, squad based sport. I use gear and equipment that is engineered for wat I'm specifically doing and that'll help me win, while being an effective squad member. Now while the best gear is modern military gear, and of course we enjoy the realism aspect, we don't want it over effectiveness. I could care less if the SEALs or Rangers wear the same thing. I want my gear and the players in my squad to be technical, efficient, tactically sound, etc. If you look like you are ready to storm the beaches of Normandy, or like you're going to chase the Covenant out of Earth space, you are not these things. There's nothing wrong with what your doing, but it's not the same thing and therefore should be done elsewhere with people of the same mindset, as o have done. The fact that we both use airsoft guns, at least to me, is as similar as a pro soccer player being the same as someone in a business meeting because they both wear shoes. So, no matter what your personal idiosyncrasies are, or what you believe, you must be in the right headspace for the right game or sim. Attitude and intent are everything.

[BioRage]

Originally Posted by Zack The Ripper

snip

Gonna run out of clap.gifs for you Zach.