real steel question

[kennysteez]

is the mk 16 ( scar light ) really obsolete now? because it is no better or worse than the other 5.56 nato round AR's i think im a little heart broken now i have to buy a vfc scar h to feel more realistic not to mention the mag rarity

whats ur opinion on the scar l being extinct ?

[Danke]

It's pretty well a dead parrot. Only limited numbers still in use and those are to be withdrawn in the next year or so.

[Ming_the_Merciless]

Originally Posted by kennysteez

is the mk 16 ( scar light ) really obsolete now? because it is no better or worse than the other 5.56 nato round AR's i think im a little heart broken now i have to buy a vfc scar h to feel more realistic not to mention the mag rarity

whats ur opinion on the scar l being extinct ?

I don't stay up to date with the latest procurement moves made by the special operations community, but it's news to me that 5.56 SCARs are being phased out by 2013. Sounds like they finally saw the light, that gas piston driven ARs or 5.56 rifles were looking for a problem that didn't exist with the traditional gas impingement systems - as long as the proper PMCS were followed. It doesn't sound like they are moving entirely away from 5.56 to 7.62 though, but for operations in A-stan, I'd would rather have 7.62, that being said though, a heavier grain bullet would be a nice stop gap measure, before phasing in 7.62 rifles if they indeed make the shift. I'd also imagine that the SEALs, Rangers, Army Special Forces, MARSOC, AFSOC or whatever tier 1 uber-death-ninjia-high-speed-low-drag group will still have some degree of freedom to choose their weapon systems based on what is most optimized for their particular mission, so there might be some SCAR-Ls out there when dust from the procurement battle settles.

For references here is the US Army PMCS guide for the M4/M16:
http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-10.pdf

For best duty loads for 5.56:

If Barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them (1:9 minimum twist rate):

Hornady 75gr OTM loads
Nosler 77gr OTM loads
Sierra 77gr SMK loads
If Barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can't stabilize the heavy 70+ grain bullets:

Sierra 69gr SMK loads
Hornady 68gr OTM loads
Winchester 64gr JSP (RA223R2)
Federal 64gr TRU (223L)
Hornady 60gr JSP
If your rifle is 1:12 twist rate and can only shoot lighter-weight bullets:

55gr Federal bonded JSP load (LE223T1 or P223T2)
Barnes 55gr TSX/TAC-X
50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*
If Barrier penetration IS an important factor (most of these should work with 1:9 barrels, but use common sense in regards to twist rate requirements)

62gr Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)*
64gr Winchester solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)*
50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*
Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (5.56)*
Federal 62gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1)*
62gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3)
55gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2)
Swift 75gr Scirocco (usually requires 1:7 twist)
60gr Nosler Partition JSP
Remington 62gr bonded JSP
Federal 55gr TSX (T223S)
Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (.223)
Federal 62gr Fusion JSP (Same construction as the Gold Dot)

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

[kennysteez]

well thats pretty sad but at the same time i can see why 7.62 is way more devastating looks like im going scar h .....fuck

[DEATH2000]

7.62 For the Win. Several Police Departments in the US have added or switched to, the Springfield Armormy M1A SOCOM rifle chambered in .308. They found that they needed the extra stopping power from a slug but the accuracy of an M4 type rifle. Which they found in the M1A.

[Death March]

I'v read in a few mag's like Tactical Weapons & SWAT,say that they seem to be looking at the 6.8spc & 6.5 Grendel (more the 6.8mm) for a new round. C.I.A. had a big order in for the 6.8 from LWRC for out of country drug raids. 6.8 has some realy awsome power even compared to the 7.62.

[slink182]

Basically, the procurement office completed their study of the two SCAR types (L & H). The general consensus was that those who had boots on the ground preferred the H for penetration, range & takedown ability, even if they couldn't carry as much ammo overall. They also found that those who were issued L's to begin with eventually were refitted with H's, regardless of weapon format (CQB, Standard or SSR). The procurement office also wanted to further reduce their parts inventory to simplify the supply chain.

So, yeah, procurement cancelled their remaining order of L's, upped their order for H's, and is only maintaining parts for the L's until 2013 (I think) before final phase-out.

Still, they're not going to just disappear overnight - L's will be around for awhile, especially for those "special" units who like to requisition outside of normal channels.

[Ricochet]

It also seems that the Masada isn't doing well either, in the final testing phases. But as most of it is still in R&D they may have time to work out all the kinks. It'll be interesting to see what becomes the primary weapon of special operations units. I guess this means the army and the marines won't be dropping the M4/M16 anytime soon either.

[Padkiller]

Originally Posted by Death March

I'v read in a few mag's like Tactical Weapons & SWAT,say that they seem to be looking at the 6.8spc & 6.5 Grendel (more the 6.8mm) for a new round. C.I.A. had a big order in for the 6.8 from LWRC for out of country drug raids. 6.8 has some realy awsome power even compared to the 7.62.

Indeed! The 6.8 ( I don't know much about the 6.5 thought!) has a lot of power, not as much as the 7.62, but close to it! And has a lot of accuracy, much like an m16!

LWRC PSD Future Weapons - YouTube

Skip to 4:40!

[ThunderCactus]

Also +1 to the 6.8mm, seems to be the best middleground round. I'd love to see some box of truth testing with it though to see it's penetrating capability!

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

It also seems that the Masada isn't doing well either, in the final testing phases. But as most of it is still in R&D they may have time to work out all the kinks. It'll be interesting to see what becomes the primary weapon of special operations units. I guess this means the army and the marines won't be dropping the M4/M16 anytime soon either.

same old same old..

nothing in the offing is "better enough" to warrant dropping the M4/M16, and frankly I can't see anything doing so for the foreseeable future.

Marginal increases in performance or reliability aside, all alternatives are little more than an M4 in a fancy dress.

[Ricochet]

Too True. The Masada originally started as an M4. They stripped back what the didn't like, and kept what the did. Also taking a few insights from the Scar. They wanted it lighter, and more reliable. I think what F'ed it up must have been all the crap they didn't need. Like the ability to change out rounds. Stick with power, weight, and reliability first. Basically improve on what you have. Down the road you can go for the novelty stuff. It's funny, because they kept it so under wraps like some sort of super secret weapon, when the info finally was released it was like cool. But is it better all around then what you have? ...No? Oh well at least I can switch to non NATO rounds. Because that's important!

[Ming_the_Merciless]

Too True. The Masada originally started as an M4. They stripped back what the didn't like, and kept what the did. Also taking a few insights from the Scar. They wanted it lighter, and more reliable. I think what F'ed it up must have been all the crap they didn't need. Like the ability to change out rounds. Stick with power, weight, and reliability first. Basically improve on what you have. Down the road you can go for the novelty stuff. It's funny, because they kept it so under wraps like some sort of super secret weapon, when the info finally was released it was like cool. But is it better all around then what you have? ...No? Oh well at least I can switch to non NATO rounds. Because that's important!

I was excited, an 5.56 gas piston system designed from the ground up, not this retrofit system business, and probably would have picked up one myself if it wasn't for the price. I remember reading Magpul wanted it to be low cost, around $1300 USD, but prices are above $2k I wished Magpul didn't sell the rights, to Bushmaster, now Remington, and did things in house, especially considering how superb their Q/C and Q/A processes are. I like that they took the fire controls group from an M4/M16, made it ambidextrous, with a QD barrel to exchange calibers, but when I picked one up to check out at a gunshow, was disappointed, weight being the driver. It felt like a toy, fire controls like on an airsoft gun, and most of all surprised at how heavy it was, especially since it's a polymer gun. QD barrel was nice, but you'll have to rezero it defeating the reason why it's QD in the first place, to easily be able to swamp out different lengths at a moments notice for whatever mission, but if you got to redial in your optic for it, then, why?

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

same old same old..

nothing in the offing is "better enough" to warrant dropping the M4/M16, and frankly I can't see anything doing so for the foreseeable future.

Marginal increases in performance or reliability aside, all alternatives are little more than an M4 in a fancy dress.

The Marines already have their new gas piston 556 rifles, not 100% on the process of how, but essentially the Marines wanted new M4s, circumvent the procurement mess, they somehow were able to replaced their M249s for HK416s, but called them M27 IARs?!

Exclusive photos: The M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle in combat
JUNE 27TH, 2011 | AFGHANISTAN GEAR INFANTRY WEAPONS | POSTED BY DAN LAMOTHE

The M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle was approved for full fielding recently by Commandant Gen. Jim Amos. Marine Corps Times profiled the decision in its print edition last week, outlining what it means for each fire team, rifle qualifications and the gear Marines bring to war.
The decision is a big deal to the Corps, but until now, no photographs of the IAR in Afghanistan have been released. That’s where Marine Corps Times photographer Tom Brown comes in. Below, you’ll find images shot on patrol last week with 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines, out of Marine Corps Base Hawaii. It’s the first battalion to take the IAR to war, and senior writer Gina Cavallaro has a feature on it in this week’s print edition.
For now, the photos:

Lance Cpl. Joshua Houck, of Alpha Company, 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines, looks through the scope of his M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle during a June 23 patrol in Garmser, Afghanistan. (Photo by Thomas Brown/Staff)

Lance Cpl. Joshua Houck, of Alpha Company, 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines, crosses the Helmand River with the new M27 IAR during a June 23 patrol in Garmser, Afghanistan. (Photo by Tom Brown/Staff)

Lance Cpl. Kendrick Johnson, of Alpha Company 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines, holds the new M27 IAR during a June 23 patrol in Garmser, Afghanistan.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Ming_the_Merciless

The Marines already have their new gas piston 556 rifles, not 100% on the process of how, but essentially the Marines wanted new M4s, circumvent the procurement mess, they somehow were able to replaced their M249s for HK416s, but called them M27 IARs?!

it's still an M4.. in a tux ..

By the way.. the Civi version of the MASADA is available in Canada.

Bushmaster ACR, and you can even get it in a unrestricted version (about $3200 )

the SCAR is still MIA with respect to its Firearms Registry # at this point.. but they will eventually run out of reasons to delay and release it too .. and it will probably be available in an unrestricted version as well.

[T_A_N_K]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

the SCAR is still MIA with respect to its Firearms Registry # at this point.. but they will eventually run out of reasons to delay and release it too .. and it will probably be available in an unrestricted version as well.

You can grab a SCAR look a like in a .22 if you want for about $700.