Bioval BBBMAX Airsoft Ammunition
 

Heyhey, first review for me as I'm more comfortable dishing out the flames on the other parts of the board, but Shinobi was kind enough to give me a bag of these things to do the review, so here goes...please pardon my shitty pics as I was using my Iphone's camera.

*Disclaimer, I am not employed by or affiliated with Bioval or any of their dealers

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7681/img0038rf.jpg

First impressions, hefting the bag you hear the bb's shaking around inside, and they sound different, more like glass beads or marbles than plastic airsoft pellets.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7983/img0040fq.jpg

Do they kill/maim

Short answer, no.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3603/img0039hs.jpg

They are ALOT harder than plastic bb's, but after gaming with them, I received no complaints of bleeders, or shattered goggles etc. my capa shoots 320fps w/.20's

I tested them at point blank range against the following forms of eye protection and with my hi-capa and a G&G AK47 Beta Spetz (both are sub 350fps guns, didn't have anything hotter to test with)

CT Shop glasses - no damage

G&G Shooting glasses - no damage

Generic ACM Paintball mask - scuff on the lens, no damage to the plastic

Cheapo Dollarstore sunglasses - lens fell out of the frame - no damage to lens

ACM Mesh mask (the type with the woven wires, not the kind with the sheet metal with the holes which is notoriously weaker) - Paint chipped off the mesh, no penetration or shattering of the bb - same result with Sekito SIIS Japanese .25 BB

Torture Test
I tried squeezing them with pliers to see if they would squash or shatter like a normal BB, but all I could manage to do was make a scratch on either side of the bb, as you can see, the same force applied to a regular plastic bb resulted in an almost flat blob of white plastic.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1680/img0041mi.jpg

Accuracy
I did get good groupings from them, using my TM Hi-capa 5.1, they are extremely accurate, once you have your hopup set right (more on this later) and the .27gram weight appears to be a great balance between the lighter and the heavier sniper grade ammunition.

I used these bb's at the recent CAPSII year end tournament and managed to place 3rd, take from that what you will, but I like to think that I'm a decent shot ;)

Will try to post some pics of groupings later on.

Pros
- Very Accurate
- Very good range, used them at CQB Paintball in Toronto and was getting cross field kills with my TM Hi-capa 5.1
- No one's heads exploded or eyes shot through their goggles, no cars were in attendance so I didn't get a chance to test it on the windows :D
- Didn't get a chance to test it outdoors so I cannot comment on the performance in windy environments.

Cons
- They are a smaller diameter, not exactly sure as I do not have the tool to measure, and this has caused some misfeeds in my Hi-capa when the hopup isn't dialed in right. I lost my first round in the steel challenge of the CAPSII tourny due to bb's rolling out of the gun, they won't stay in the hopup if they hopup isn't turned up enough.
- They are more expensive than regular bb's
- You can't use them at TTAC3 as they are a PITA to clean up

* I would venture to guess that they would work very well in tightbore barrels due to their smaller diameter.

Conclusion

These are pretty decent bb's, I was very skeptical about them based on what I'd heard 3rd hand from the internet, but have found them to be safe and their performance is on par if not better than most plastic bb's out there.

I'm a poor guy so I couldn't buy a different bag of the leading brands to test them, so I won't be doing any shooting comparisons with these, I can only report on what my findings were after going through about half a bag of them.

*EDIT* Further testing done with KJW M700 Takedown Gas BA rifle (500-550 fps w/.20s)
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5297/img0045hh.jpg

Just got back from the shop, did some testing with a KJW M700 Takedown gas BA rifle (500-550 Fps w/ 0.2g) thanks to MoreToasties for the idea :)

Here's what I found, I shot only 2 surfaces as I didn't feel like lugging the rifle home to test on a variety of masks, so I shot a cheapo ACM Goggle and the Clear plastic lower from on of my Cansoft SCAR's

This is what happened:

Shot one side of the SCAR receiver with a regular plastic BB (Sekito SIIS .25) from an inch away, the receiver cracked, on the second shot to the exact same spot, 2 pieces of plastic fell off from inside the magwell, not sure where they came from exactly and the plastic bb cracked but did not shatter.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9666/img0044ih.jpg

Next I shot the other side of the receiver (magwell again to be fair) and this time, the receiver did not crack or random plastic pieces fell off. Instead, I got small dimples in the plastic, with no damage to the BBBMax bb at all, like Maddog said, these bb's bounce around quite a bit so it was hard keeping track of where they were going, I did make it a point to retrieve them to make sure they hadn't shattered.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3734/img0048oy.jpg

Repeated this 3 more times, and got more dimples but no cracks in the plastic, the shadow of a crack seen in this pic is from the opposite side of the receiver.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8417/img0049uo.jpg

Next, the goggles, these aren't rated but they still held up to the 500+ BBBMax projectile that I fired at it, 2 shots to the exact same spot. First shot made a bad scuff and a small dent and the second shot pushed the dent deeper, again the bb's bounced away without shattering.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2892/img0050wz.jpg

They're sweet BBs, hard to clean up from TAC, Brian won't let you use them there.
But from firing them at CAPS tournament, they were pretty accurate and smooth. Liked the finish on it.

Tightbore barrels work by having less of a gap between the BB and barrel so smaller BB's in a tightbore would be like normal BB's in a normal barrel. Standard BB's are 5.95mm but cheaper brands can be as large as 6.02mm meaning the tiniest bit of dirt in a 6.03mm tightbore and it can jam.

Still curious how they perform (safety-wise) in a >350fps gun, since that's more realistic in terms of what people use outdoors (375-400 range).

The fact they won't squish like normal BBs also leads me to think they'd either shatter when they do reach a breaking point, or do a lot more damage otherwise.

Testing with field power guns is really needed. Nothing's going to do much damage at sub-350 speeds.

Great review Pus, thanks a lot!

We have to use these BBs at the local field here in London, now that we have a nice review it will be a lot easier to ease peoples minds when it comes to firing them through their weapons!

Cheers! :)

Agree, I would like to know the performance of the bb at higher FPS because we play outdoor and what about sniper ? 450fps~

I can't see them having any issues at higher velocity.

The fear surrounding these BBs I think is unfounded ..

Though I expect they may damage cheap plastic guns if they are hit..

I've banned the use of then at TTAC3 however.. because they are very hard to see on the floor and so difficult to clean up. I'm still finding them rolling around weeks after ...

Yes they do shatter, I forgot to add this to the review. We did manage to break one at the store by putting it under a dolly and stomping on it, the bb didn't shatter until the 2nd stomp. Your gun would have to be shooting well over the field limits to put out enough fps to launch it hard enough to break like that.

It reallly is a shame that they are clear and we can't use them at TTAC3, maybe the will star making them in white or something hehe

also DemiBlitz, the bb's in use at the pball field in London are regular bioval bio bb's not the bbbmax ones aren't they?

I'm not sure how broken car windows is "unfounded", Brian. We have that as a factual event. All we've gotten so far in response to it is spindoctoring from Bioval, so I do believe testing is necessary.

I mean here's the community that went ballistic over a video of a few kids trespassing in an abandoned facility: for their irresponsible actions and potential for giving the sport a bad image they got a lifelong ban, calls for their AV status to be revoked and some wanted to turn their identities over to law enforcement. Yet here we have BBs that were shown to have caused serious damage at one event, were tested and shown to be dangerous by at least one source, they could potentiality cause more injuries than regular BBs, yet only a handful of people here seem to think its irresponsible to allow these on fields without proper testing and in fact most people seem quite cavalier about it as long as they gain some small edge in range or accuracy.

If they're so safe, why is it so hard to get someone to do proper unbiased testing? (Pus seems on the right track, but needs >350fps guns)

I suggest we take up a collection to purchase the proper equipment for me to get some conclusive results, I'll take any ak :D

Yeah Pus now that you mention that my head is hurting trying to remember...
FML, now I will need to find out :P

The whole "car window" thing is immaterial... so what? If they don't damage ballistic rated goggles then who cares if they will break a car window?

Any BB will break glass if it is heavy enough and going fast enough.

the muzzle energy is the same for any projectile of similar weight at similar velocity regardless of their material.

They could be Adamantite or Kryptonite it would not change a thing.

Personally I have no issues with these BBs other than you can't see the damn things on the floor!!

And if we were shotting steel targets.. I may be concerned about the shatter issues.. but we have the same issues with plastic shooting steel targets .. little sharp shards...

Good short little review Pus.
How well can you actually see them being fired?

Like Demiblitz said, we have to use them at the local field but we use the Bio brand. I have not had a chance to use these ones yet, interested to give them a shot one day.

If I get a round to grabbing a bag I'll post my results with my AKM, shooting ~380-390 or so
(Or if Pus wanted to mail me some in a small baggy ;) lmao)

It's true about any bb breaking glass, I shot a 24 in a friend's basement with a 400fps AK and had a bottle inside shatter from 15 ft. away, and that was a regular plastic bb, unless you are wearing car windows for goggles, I wouldn't worry :)

Don't you have an overpowered M700 at the shop?

I have been shooting bio BB's for the last 6 months and had not one problem with them once the hop up it set with 20's,my cheap cybergun 552,GBB glock,to my new ICS M4 concept,they shoot straight and as far as can be expected,Adrenaline in london has been selling to whole line from glow in the dark to .30gr cheers..

I suppose its more of a concern for those who play outdoors with vehicles than indoors. And again, at the speeds we play at the normal BBs don't break glass.

But whatever, this is like arguing with religious people.

Hmph, I don't even get what the argument is about anyway.

So where can you get these in Canada?

There's a retailer section.

If you don't get the argument try searching "Bioval BBBMAX" and you will see what the issue at hand is all about.

It's a done to death stupid argument, your always going to have folks on both sides saying their points. When someone finally takes the time and has the resources to do conclusive testing on a variety of goggles etc. then the facts will be the facts, no more no less. Until then it's "Well I heard that" or "My buddies best friends second cousin saw" and so on and so on. Pus put his review up ... it's a review of what he saw and his conclusion so take it as just that and avoid the whole long drawn out argument bit. Ask him your questions if you have any and I'm sure he'll answer as best as he can.

Personally I think Pus is on the right track with the Bio's.
The issues that stand are from various reviews that stand via what? The internet.
Mind you we've had issues in the past with Bios blah blah blah.. New products could mean, better products?
So at this point in time, because we've all heard the arguments before, why not let those dedicated member in our community, like Pus, run their trials and reviews and go from there. Let's see what the results bring home from the community. That's why we have ASC, no?

Maybe I am being a little logical here and maybe too political for my own good :P It just makes sense to me.

As for the glass breaking issue, firstly, why are we shooting at glass? Secondly, there is a reason we wear ANSI rated goggles, is there not?

EDIT: BlackRain beat me to the punch!! :P My point stand though!! Darn people posting while you type ;)

LOL... I fear you have underestimated my typing speed...lol

Yes Toasties, we DO have a hot M700 atthe store, I will take it home today and try it out, thanks for the reminder.

Guys, this thread is not about Bio BB's it's about BBBMax BB's they're not the same thing, as a mesh mask user I have always been against the use of cheap bio bb's as they DO shatter and can hurt the person wearing the mesh mask. These are not the same thing.

The issue people have with these is that they are so hard, that some people feel that they could damage someone or their gear by shooting them with these harder bb's

The second issue that people have and one that I do agree with is the shady marketing tactics of the Bioval people, trying to use guerilla marketing to spam the Internet to create an artificial buzz about their product. I think that that is very low and I do not support that at all. I have given an unbiased review of their product and simply posted my findings.

Would I use them again? Yes

Do I agree with Bioval's marketing schemes? No

Well I was searching around and found this review. Hope it help.

http://www.biovalbbb.eu/LevanteLabsBalisticbbTest.pdf

You mean the Lab that turned out to not be an unbiased outsider and showed no evidence of its existence prior to, or outside the testing of Bioval ??? Yeah they should provide a fair and uncompromised judgement.

I would be a bit skeptical when reading reviews of a company's product when it's posted on the company's website.

true =/ i didn't even think of that point

They are VERY GOOD BB's. i've been a supporter of these BB's since I've had the opportunity to try them. I have re-shoot my BBBMax several times without a single jam, or fouling.

Usage Experience
 

I have tried these in an outdoor game at Flagraiders. My AK shoots 400fps and I did not have a single complaint or anyone notice until they saw the clear bb's in the staging area. A few guys had no idea where they were being shot from since these BB's are hard to see incoming.

I have tested them on my goggles (400 FPS) both mesh and paintball (JT elite and Spectra) no issue or breakage but they do bounce back quite a bit. I was not able to shatter them in a squeeze test. I shot them at armour stone in my backyard, they did not shatter from point blank but they really do bounce.

They are easy to track up to about a 100 feet then it is hard to keep an eye on them, but easier than using black BB's. A nice positive is that the enemy cannot see them coming and dodge them. You really need to set the hop-up but once I did they worked well.

They were very accurate and consistent as far as I could keep track of them with the naked eye, I did notice that!
I thought I already had a very accurate setup and these may have slightly improved it. With a shredder spacer hop-up and a tightbore these .27 weight BB's would be hard to beat. I will wait for spring to tune that setup and test some more distance shooting.

They are expensive, I bought them to try out this new product but I am not sure it would be a daily shooter. The performance was not that much better than my Bastard .25's or .28's for the additional cost. When shooting at a distance it is hard to see if you are impacting the target and whether you need to make adjustments.

My $.02

MD

i think just the fact that they do shatter should result in their disqualification from any airsoft event.

I'm more worried that they might be a fire hazard. They seem to focus light a bit and glass has been know to cause quite a few forest fires... But these BBs have been in use for a while in Europe, I suppose that if European Airsoft fields suddenly started catching fire, we'd know by now. ;)

Think of the forces involved in breaking one of these as described by members here on ASC.

In other words, if it shatters and takes someones eye out, its going fast enough TO KILL.

Its this type of thinking which holds back progress.

1- I was going to mention that MadDog has used them, but I see he has already posted on the thread.....good points bro, and yeah, I heard no complaints from your victims.
2- I do a lot of squish tests on various brands, weights, and types of BBs using a pair of pliers, and I found that the Biovals do shatter...or more correctly, they impact to powder. No splitting, cracking, or the like....they just turn to powder like grains of sand. This however takes a lot of effort, and I mean a heck of a lot more of a squeeze in comparison to a MadBull or Bastard BBs....or even my Straight 0.36 BBS.
3- For those of you who do not know why 6mm 0.43 weight BBs are not used on gaming fields, it is for the same reason as to why I will not use the bioval BBs: All other BBs I use in my BA have some type of give to them (ie, on impact the BB actually starts to flatten, spreading out the kinetic energy over a larger impact point). The 0.43s tend to be such a hard composite (similar to Biovals) that they will not flatten, and therefore they transfer the same kinetic energy through a smaller impact point, resulting in a deeper, more penetrating transfer of the kinetic energy.

It is not under ideal conditions that we worry about using such BBs, it's the preventable injuries that result from idiots accidentally discharging their airsoft at close proximity that we are worried about. So, I am not going to say they should be banned, however, I will not endorse or use them personally.

My $00.02 worth....
SHA DO

M700 Murder (lol)
 

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5297/img0045hh.jpg

Just got back from the shop, did some testing with a KJW M700 Takedown gas BA rifle (500-550 Fps w/ 0.2g) thanks to MoreToasties for the idea :)

Here's what I found, I shot only 2 surfaces as I didn't feel like lugging the rifle home to test on a variety of masks, so I shot a cheapo ACM Goggle and the Clear plastic lower from on of my Cansoft SCAR's

This is what happened:

Shot one side of the SCAR receiver with a regular plastic BB (Sekito SIIS .25) from an inch away, the receiver cracked, on the second shot to the exact same spot, 2 pieces of plastic fell off from inside the magwell, not sure where they came from exactly and the plastic bb cracked but did not shatter.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9666/img0044ih.jpg

Next I shot the other side of the receiver (magwell again to be fair) and this time, the receiver did not crack or random plastic pieces fell off. Instead, I got small dimples in the plastic, with no damage to the BBBMax bb at all, like Maddog said, these bb's bounce around quite a bit so it was hard keeping track of where they were going, I did make it a point to retrieve them to make sure they hadn't shattered.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3734/img0048oy.jpg

Repeated this 3 more times, and got more dimples but no cracks in the plastic, the shadow of a crack seen in this pic is from the opposite side of the receiver.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8417/img0049uo.jpg

Next, the goggles, these aren't rated but they still held up to the 500+ BBBMax projectile that I fired at it, 2 shots to the exact same spot. First shot made a bad scuff and a small dent and the second shot pushed the dent deeper, again the bb's bounced away without shattering.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2892/img0050wz.jpg

Science in progress .... such a wonderful thing to see. Now for all intents and purposes it would take one hell of a jacked up gun to get one of these BB's to shatter on impact from what we are seeing here. Now looking at a broken receiver from a regular BB vs the non broken receiver from the Bioval BB shot I would choose the latter. I would rather have a ding in my gun then have to replace the lower receiver.

Sha Do.... how much more pressure would you say it took to powder that Bioval BB, and at how many FPS would you estimate the Bioval would have to be traveling to achieve this reaction?

Huh. So according to pusanagi's test there, maybe the Levante Labs testing was on to something after all with their claim that the BBBMAX, having a more elastic impact, does in fact transfer less energy to the target by retaining more energy in itself and having a shorter impact impulse time.

I'm fairly close to doing some BB testing of my own. I'm still rounding up some locally available and commonly used brands, as well as BBBMAX and some aluminum and steel BBs.

The way I see it, unless you are using 500fps+ guns with no MED's indoors where the purpose of the game is to shove your muzzle into the enemy (or his gear) and pull the trigger, then you have nothing to fear from these or any other bb brand out there.

This was just a test to see how safe/dangerous they are, I'd like to note that I did all the earlier tests before ever gaming with them and putting others at potential risk.

I think them shattering is a pretty slim chance given they are essentially glass. The tests we did would indicate that unless you got a BB with some factory defect, you are gonna have to be WAY OVER 500 fps to break them.

I have seen examples of them breaking to shards however. The difference being how the pressure was applied. A long slow application (e.g. a vice or hydro-press) generated powdering, fast spiked applications (e.g. dropping a heavy weight from height and the sled being caught on the first bounce to stop a second blow) rendered sharding, and nasty ones at that.

I've seen plastic BB's shard too, but not quite as sharp or hard to see.

But the risks are the risks, it's up to the field and the individual to decide whats an acceptable risk. This is the laser discussion all over again.

Bottom line is I am responsible for what comes out the muzzle of my gun. For me, on a personal level, I don't trust the company, so I have no faith that I won't get a bad BB in a batch that might have a defect and hurt someone. Had the company marketed itself better, that might not be the case.

I personally have a pack of the .27 weights. Ive decided not to use them on a field while shooting at other people, instead I'll only be using them at CAPS events where I know they'll never reach that high of a velocity.

Chances they'll have issues are minimal in a situation like this.

We could probably classify bio bbs that are mistreated in this same category of danger.

WTF!?!? Don't shine a laser through these mystical glass spheres...it'd melt the sun.

Thanks for posting up Pus...nice to know no-one has died yet. Keep trying though. :)

After a CAPS match...there's LOTS of broken BBs (white ones) already. From the close ranges to the 500fps+ gas guns...if these things will break into shards, that's bad news for Brian's gym and all the barefoot martial arts guys that use it after us.

So far as ricochettes go...it's not rare to have someone shoot a window frame at point blank (I think the last one I caught was Betty's window frame shot out of a gas M4...right in the nuts). I've caught several high speed rebounds already RO'ing matches. We've all seen what happens when the backer boards are oriented to square...and those ricochettes are travelling the length of TTAC3 (down range 2/3rds...and bouncing back all the way to the firing line).

So anything to reduce the bounce...that's good for CAPS.

Field use...m'eh, whatever.

On the other BBBMax threads I've been saying the EXACT same things for a while now. Safe for airsoft, bio inert. Excellent shot to shot consistency.

I've shot these things at 700FPS with a Tanaka M700 on a 30 degree day with the power bolt. They don't break against the fence, and they didnt penetrate a 0.1mm thick lexan RC car shell at point blank range. To get this thing to shatter is going to take MUCH more force. I'll have to dig up the PM but scarecrow has had a lab test done

Oh I will, don't worry about that ;)

After the last CAPS match, Brian vetoed the use of them as they are hard to clean up, he said that he still finds them rolling around a week after

Danger Danger, somebody please think of the children! :rolleyes:

Why the hell would anyone be worried about these, they are not going to shatter. In fact they would stay intact where others would break.
If everyone uses the same protection they have always been using, rated glasses, goggles, mouth guards or full face masks you will not have an issue. Teeth will chip and bleeders will happen no matter what BB you use especially with a heavier weight.
If you choose not to use any protective gear for those areas, that is up to the individual and a recognized risk in this sport.

When they start coming out with eye protection made from windshield glass, then I will become concerned.

+1

I pretty much echo what Maddog says here. Be mindful if you're near any window glass or autoglass you don't want broken as thats a proven problem, but beyond that I don't have any concerns - other than they are BIO-NEUTRAL, they are not BIO-DEGRADABLE. Don't confuse the two - that was my beef with BioVAL's website. My initial problems were getting reasonably unbiased information about the product, but through product samples, I've been able to determine it is almost pure silica (as I had said in another thread).

You'll shortly have a Bastard version of this, available this spring. Stay tuned.

i thought you already had little glass bastard balls lol


Sounds good jay. I will be holding out for your version.

Scarecrow, will they be clear as well, or will they have color?

Clear - identical makeup and color (or transparency) of the BioVAL versions. Since they are pure silica with a polished surface, its a relatively simple product actually. There are definitely unique performance characteristics to this particular material - but whether those are desirable or not is up to you guys.

I've always tried to carried whatever you guys wanted, its just a question of determining risks. Those are printed on my bags - just look at the ECOBBs - storage and mesh goggle warnings. I'll put similar glass warnings on these (ie: don't shoot at glass). Based on what I've seen Pus do here (an unbiased local airsofter who I've met before), I think these simple tests address many of my concerns and now that I know what they are made of (for sure) and done my own tests, I don't have an issue with the materials and goggles - but auto and window glass is still a concern.

I would still put the warning there about your feedpath - these f**kers are HARD and will wear your feedpath components, possibly, prematurely. I don't have evidence for it but I am speculating just based on what I've seen steel BBs do to a feedpath and in respect to the plastic components of a typical AEG, short of steel, these are the hardest BBs you can run through your system. I may sacrifice a couple of Krakens to test this theory.

Well if BB Bastard sells em ill buy em

Well, over 100 sample bags were distributed at TAC10 of the Clears. So far I understand from 2 players who've actually gamed them, and they like them so far. I am sure reviews will follow, so I won't go into detail.

It will be up to field owners and players to decide if they want to use this product or not, but there will be a good supply of it this summer. Just check with your host before you take it out to the field.

I didn't get a chance to grab one mysElf but I took a look at some over at the CAPS table, they do look very nice, I will have to get some and try them out :)

In what material are they made? And could you say they sit between plastic bbs and aluminium bbs? (harder of the bb)

its been said like a gazillion time in this page alone that they are 100% pure silica, IE glass

Thank you, I admited that I didn't read completly and so your answer is even more welcome, thank you :)

Quit being so damn ignorant .... all the guy did was ask a simple question.

Glass is simply a form silica can take. Silica it self is primarily found in nature as quartz, which due to physical and chemical weathering processes like jointing and dissolution; quartz usually ends up as a primary component in sand. Sorry I just felt like tossing in some random info on Silica.

Thank you Pus,

you told it like it is.

Don't see that happening anymore these days.

If they are made in silica, could there be a danger of developing silicose disease? Kiding ;|

As I have stated in another thread, I am going to be cautious when I field test the silica BBs. I have spoken with several players who are using them and so far there has been no incidents reported, but my concern is that the hardness of the silica BBs (may they be BB Bastard or Bioval brands) in that the BB itself does not have any type of "give". Therefore upon impact with something hard (goggles, bone (forehead, knuckles)) the transfer of kinetic energy will be higher compared to BBs that easily squish, flatten, or even shatter upon impact.
This is why we don't use/allow aluminum BBs onto the field (they are strictly for plinking or match shooting), and in comparison, the silica BBs are actually harder than aluminum BBs, but fortunately much lighter (ie, the base calculation for calculating joules and kinetic energy requires the weight factor as well as speed, and with the silica BBs being 60% lighter than typical aluminum BBs, the result will be lower numbers).

-Using them for 350 fps CQB??? Probably not a good idea.
-General field use?? Still in deliberation.
-Sniping with enforced MED?? This is what I'm going to focus on, as obviously the silica BBs have a huge "stealth" advantage over conventional white BBs. Though I suspect that those that have issues tracking shots with the graphite coated or coloured BBs (tan Green OD, black) will have more difficulty using these to snipe.

SHA DO

Glad you brought that up Sha Do we have used them in a trail run of skills practice"Caps" at the store using Bam airsoft reactive targets using AEG's +/- 400 fps denting but breaking in two off the sides, but outdoors they are a cats ass you have a hard time seeing them. As for N force and joules, always practice your ten foot rule and get em with a Knife "To close with and Destroy",

LOL....systematic weapons deployment;

450-250 feet - sniper rifle
250-40 feet - stoner rifle
150-10 feet - pistol
10-2 feet - knife
1-0 feet - bad language

SHA DO

But as for our rules MNR restictions we have to use bio,s and everybody should,for the environments sake,there's a lot of non bio laying around in somebody's contaminating that area for what the next 1000 yrs but who cares, we will be long since dead at that time, They are good BB,s try them out yourself at Frozen Ghost,we are just trying to offer the public the best quality to the consumer and having a good time !!

Thanks for pointing that out Sha Do. I've identified the possible consequences for hardness in speaking to people at TAC10 at the BB Bastard booth. Many people were given the opportunity to play in our BB 'lab', crush BBs, split them, look at them under magnification and discuss their properties.

Similarly this BB formulation has been brought up several times in threads and other discussions. Speaking for myself, I want to see everyone understand the properties of this BB formulation. It's unique properties has tremendous potential as an accurized BB round or an everyday BB round, and guys likes Sha Do, CDN_Stalker, Maddog and others will be commenting in the coming weeks and months about their own tests and experiences with these two products.

I recommend that if you're interested in using this round, watch for the playing and testing leaders in the community for what they say, as its my belief that the playing community needs to either accept or reject this product formulation or have a general agreement on its conditional use if some of these BB properties are problematic.

I think that it's exciting that we have new options and I doubt that silicas will be the last of the innovative materials that you see turned into BBs, but ultimately the playing community will pick what works for it.

for me, i dont see the necessity of players using silica BBs when you already carry a fantastic .28g product already.

For CAPS and other forms of accuracy testing and whatnot, by all means, use silica BBs, but for games standard BBs. SHA DO is right, the density of the silica BBs will transmit more kinetic energy to the target.

Now, instead of BBs breaking on my gun or body, they will either dent my gun or possibly cause more bleeders. Im not complaining about the bleeders, but im just worried about the possible effects.

im sure there is a mathematical equation, but if you were to shoot a .28g regular Bastard at a target at 10ft away, and do the same thing with a silica BB, i think the silica will cause more "damage". That because of the higher density, the end result of being shot with a silica BB would be as if being shot with a regular BB but at higher fps.

Also, wouldn't there be more instances of teeth getting knocked out because of the higher density?

Perhaps that doesn't make any sense, but i hope it does. It is just something that concerns me.

Again im not knocking you Scarecrow. In fact, i applaud you for diversifying the Bastard line. and for target stuff, silica bbs are ideal, but i just dont know about games.

This is a review thread for a product, not an opportunity for you to soapbox about doing what's right for the environment and promoting your game at your field.

As soon as anyone triesguilt tripping me into using a product I am automatically turned off of it, you want to market a product..do it the right way, don't feed me a bunch of lame hippie crap.

Brian has banned using clear BBs at TAC for CAPS and CQB nights because you can't see them well while cleaning up and also the space is shared with martial arts class and other activities where students and people train in bare feet. :p

I think Pusangani's testing supports some of the claims made in BioVALs marketing material (note I do not call it a lab report) - one of them being that the hardness causes greater deflection and carries more kinetic energy away from the target. I believe this to be true, but on for deflective shots, based on what I've seen here. Conversely, if there is less of a deflective angle, does that mean more energy is transferred to the target? Logic would deem it so, but practical testing is really the only way to determine this IMHO.

The problem is this conclusion is somewhat specious and counterintuitive - this is why I'm interested in seeing players either validate or discard property claims about this material.

Incidently no knock taken, your points are valid. I'm not landing on any side of the argument - I too believe the Bastard .28g product has yet to be challenged as an outdoor round, perhaps the only better one would be the .30g round, but I don't think its as univeral as the .28gr (ie: to upgraded guns). However, if the availability and acceptance of the 407ft-500ft argument becomes widespread and field limits rise, I can see .30gr becoming the new .28gr... lol. Wait and see I guess.

One thing I have learned about this sport and its Canadian players is that predicting their preferences and their ultimate decisions is tricky, and as a vendor, you need to keep on your toes, offer options and stay as flexible and responsive as possible, or you're dead out of the gate.

My opinion on that matter is on the public record. I get a little steamed on this subject, so forgive the repetitious post below.

Hosts can dictate whatever they want, its their land. My toxicity tests were posted at my booth at TAC10 and on my website. There are no toxic materials in *any* of the product line, and the styrene product is about 25 years and is reduced to CO2, carbon and water around that time. Silicas will last undisturbed for a long time - but its bio-neutral. The ECOBB product lasts between 90 and 365 days depending on local conditions. This isn't spent nuclear fuel. I wish the granola crunchers would get a grip.

As I've said before, everything biodegrades, nothing is toxic and its just a matter of timeline. Use whatever product fits your needs or your agenda.

Hi, I tried them on a coke can at 7 meters with a 400fps WE SCAR to compare them to my .30g Madbull bbs. I was very deceived because they simply bounce on the empty coke can compare the the .30g bbs that pass threw it. I though they were carrying more energy on impact, not that they would bounce on it? For me, as a result, far less damage done to the coke can compare to normal bbs...

I'm interested in how this turned out? How goes it in Canada and glass bb's? (silica whatever)

I did a crush test compared to Madbull aluminium bbs. With a plier and all my strenght I wasn't able to crush or disformed the silicca bb. I was able to disformed the aluminium bbs.

I've been slowly replacing using Armist bb's with bioval bio bb's.. my TM MP5 doesn't fire Armist bb's, misfeed every 2 rounds. Bioval BIO bb's are great! I currently use .25 in my Classic Army UMC and .20 in my TM MP5... and I've yet to have any misfeeds.. every last bb always feeds. For bio bb's, these are better than non-bio.

I'm going to stick with Bioval from now on.

Necroing this thread as I did some testing today with these BBBMax BBs.

- I had 4" gong targets at 20ft and 75ft.
- I also had 10" aluminum pie plate targets at 50ft. - 60ft. - 70ft. - 80ft. - 90ft. and 100ft.
- The temperature was 25c(30c w/humidex) with very little wind.
- The rifles used.... a G&G SIG550 and G&G SIG552.
Rifles are stock, other than the 550 has a tightbore barrel. They both shoot @ 390
fps. I also was shooting a stock KJW SIGP229R I believe it shoots about 330fps.

- The other BB I was using today was Madbull .28g

**** These BBBmax BBs are damn nice shooting BBs, I tell you what. ****

- Here is what I experienced....

- With the BBBmax, ALL targets hit with first or second shot, every time from 20ft to 100ft. With both rifles. With pistol I was getting hits consistently about 30% of the time out to about 60ft at the 4" gong.

- The Madbull BBs performed OK in the 552 (which is slightly more accurate than the 550 with the Madbulls). The 550 had more flyers with the Madbull ammo than the 552 with the Madbull BBs. The 552 shoots the Madbull BBs about 80% as accurate as the BBBmax. at the further distances. The 550 about 65% as accurate as the BBBmax.

- The BBBmax BBs really worked well in the 550. It was shooting as good as the 552 when using the BBBmax BBs. So I think that the accuracy issue I have with the 550, putting out flyers a bit too often, is a BB related issue.

- I had zero issues with feeding or jamming with the BBBmax... I did have issues with feeding, and jamming in the mags, with the Madbull BBs, in the same mags that I had no issues with the BBBmax.

- It seemed like there was no flyers at all with the BBBmax. Every shot was consistent. Very very consistent. nice and flat and very tight groups out to 100ft. Very Impressive accuracy.... very impressive.

- Where I target shoot is like a dump for the R.M. there are old abandoned vehicles there. As well as other good target materials. I shot at some of the vehicle windows from about 50ft. THESE DID LEAVE VISIBLE MARKS IN/ON THE GLASS.
the mark was a circular ring, a little smaller than a shim.
- I shot at the windshield, the door windows, triangle vent windows, and none of the windows cracked or shattered.

- I also shot at other surfaces there....concrete, plywood, steel, aluminum eavestroughing, posts, styrofoam insulation. I did not see any more marking than a regular BB would leave.... although the BBBmax did bounce quite far after hitting a hard object. Farther than a regular BB.

- visibility... into the sun, you could track them very easily. With the sun, they were very hard to see, almost impossible the first 50ft. with a light shaded background....with a dark background, they are more visible... but with a regular grass, gravel, clayhills type environment, only after about 50ft... that first 50 ft they are moving hella fast and very hard to see when shooting with the sun.

- I have not tried these in wind, but I assume they will react pretty much like any other BB in windy conditions.


*** My overall opinion....

These are a great performing BB. Really the best performance for a BB that I have seen. If these do not penetrate eye protection, and there is no glass to shoot out at the game site, I don't see why these couldn't be used in a game. IMHO
I would not have an issue being shot with these BBs.

Somewhat of a necro, but I thought I should add that I found an email saying that the bbbmaxes breaking glass was a lie, at least according to an email I found on the interwebs...