Dr StrangeBB
 

Or how I learned to stop hating cheaters and embrace the Game.

Quite frequently over Beer and Smokes in the Operators Lounge at TTAC3 post Friday Firefight, the conversation turns to "calling hits"

It is rare... but occasionally we do have incidents of "invulerability" at TTAC3, Typically it is a newer player.. or someone who is overkitted. Like the one fellow who showed up wearing a life jacket.. as body armour..
He was like the freaking Terminator... anyway I digress

I enforce a strict "no calling other players Hits" rule,I hate to hear people shouting across the floor, "What about that hit you fucker!!" almost as much as I hate hearing the under the breath muttering about "so and so is a cheater"

The rule is... If you think you hit someone.. but they don't react.. you missed. This goes along with the "if you think you were hit.. then you were" rules... the two together.. produce some good results and we don't have many issues.

Anyway... Cheaters... What is a Cheater..

Pathology of a Cheater

At the most basic recognized level it is a person who knowingly does not acknowledge being hit.. and shoots others ( typically the one who shot them) after ignoring a hit. These people can really get the blood up... shouting and bad feelings are their stock in trade... they cultivate rightious indignation..they are the scourge of fair play... and thankfully they are quite rare.

The stress of dealing with cheaters

is based in the sense of fair play.. and competition that is the single most artificial aspect of the game of airsoft.. This ain't tag with guns...Though lots of people behave like it is.

The use of Airsoft guns in Tactical or military simulation is to enhance the experiance of "realism" in simulations...

I ask you .. what could be more realistic than an opponent that does not behave as expected when shot? An Opponent that fights back and does not quit until you completely dominate them and without doubt neutralize them with effective fire? An opponent that could be wearing many sorts of possible protection that could make them resistant to "incidental" hits and can only be taken out by mutiple strikes at center of body mass..

Would not such an opponent be worthy? Challenging.. demanding?

I say the path to happyness in airsoft play is not in eradicating cheaters ( though that would be a nice ... if impossible goal ) but in accepting that cheaters do not in fact exist.. there are no cheaters.. just hard targets.. there are no "invunerable" players.. just armoured combatants.

Dealling with "hard targets" and "armoured" combatants demands the best out of YOU , that you fire from cover, that you dominate with effective fire, that you concentrate the fire of many on a few.. in short dealing with such adversity demands that you play better... at higher skill with greater cunning and rise to the challenge.

And in the end when you walk off after having poured fire onto an opponenet who then turned and shot you... Do you still not leave knowing you won that engagement? That had the bullets been real.. it would be you walking away.. and him left on the field?
For the diciplined player.. who wants to get better.. this alone should be enough. If the bullets were real... there would be no question..

If there is one thing that is true... Combat is not about "fair play" it is about dominating your opponent..With individual skill at arms and with movement, formations and effective fire.. If the bullets were real.. no one would expose themselves to fire.. hoping the other guy will go down first.

This is also why I follow a fire for effect rule.. You shoot.. and keep on shooting till the other guy calls hit..Never pop 2 at him and then hope he takes it this is a certain path to hard feelings and dissatisfaction with the game.

Every time you get shot by anyone.. it is because you did something wrong.. or you put yourself in a situation where getting shot was the logical outcome.( This is still doing something wrong but sometimes it happens ) It is not because " the other guy Cheated" Remember.. there are no cheaters... just hard targets.. and armoured opponents..Who in the end Challenge you to be a better player.

Well said.

i often find myself calling myself hit out at XT even though i dont know for sure if ive been hit out. its called good sportsmanship.

as they say, not calling your hit out, often involves being shot more.

In the past when I did the "fire for effect" rule I was deemed as a harsh person by some members of this forum who no longer plays, At first i always aim for the biggest mass ( the body ) but after a while as the method of the game is played and the outfit or kit we wore evolved I have switch from body shots to open area shots (head, neck, exposed skin area etc.) and i find this more effective than doing short burst or multiple shots where the intended target just simply walk away to another hiding spot, I find that a well tuned scope or red dot sight is quite helpful in the hide and shoot situation.

I see your point of taking cheaters as a challenge and a way to improve your tactics but majority of the times our emotions get the better of us and quite often we seek a way of retribution towards such players instead of taking the high road, or maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy and just want to play with out all the bitching and moaning.

I heard the word cheater at our games aswell. I just tell them not to worry about it so much and at least there here playing.

And we all take hit,s without knowing it sometimes.

When it comes right down to it the goal is to have fun is it not.

Heh, I kind of follow this idea myself. If he didn't call hit, he obviously did not feel it or is just not calling hit. Therefore, you shoot him more, and if he still doesn't call hit, you keep shooting till he does. I don't think in the real world you pop off two shots and then look and see if the person is down. You shoot that fucker until he's down, or it'll be your ass down next.

try shooting at someone helmet emptying 3 locaps worth of ammo and have him just walk out and shoot you and claiming that you only hit his helmet not body, on top of that he shot me from 4 feet away with his sniper rifle and left me with a purple pimple on my lip ( that was my last game that i played at Flag raiders in 2003 organized by a fellow ASC member) unfortunately not every one here play like you.

the game is all about fun, but what is fun when everytime you go out there is a guy dressed like he is in the seal and act like he can dodge bb's like he is in teh matrix.

I gess were lucky here in k-town we don,t have players no where,s near that bad here. Just a few young players that get fedup with getting killed all the time.

this was done long ago it end up with two team AMC and Hot Shot gearing team members with 10 - 12 hicaps each and played with AEG powered with a minimum of m140 or m150 springs. the whole so called power era began with one of the AMC players playing terminator against Hot Shot and some STAT members and it just snowballed from there.

WTH Thats unpossible :)! How did you not beat him to a pulp? :)

Sure a guy with adrenalin pumping and tac vest on while running might get clipped by a bb and not feel it (seen it), but a habitual cheater will be told if hes a friend. We keep each other honest.

I didn't beat him to a pulp because i got Gump, Poncho, Stu and one of Joe's referee on top of me and this is after I threw my W/A sigma at his head (ala Poncho style) then the next thing you know i got an old fart convention happening on top of me.

Hit my finger or all around me i always call the hit.

One thing i don't like tho, people shooting high up in the tree's so that the bb's hit people on their way down... doubt real bullet will do that but heh.

i think the "shoot for effect" idea is good, but at the same time its unfortunate it has to come to that. and yes, it is true that these "harder targets" serve as better training, but it becomes really frustrating when these "harder targets" become impossible targets.

i for one play for the training aspect of it all, the fun is an awesome bonus. but these harder targets completely take away the fun, and in turn take away any motivation to continue participating in the "training". i really dont consider shooting a guy a good 10-20 times without result "training". especially when its your training that youve recieved (eg. minimal exposure) that makes this person think its just "ricochets" cause he cant see you.
For me personally, i really dont want to shoot someone in the head, esp. at a place like ttac when engagements are much closer than outdoors, esp. when some people dont wear full face protection.

well anyways its late, im tired, enough whining, im startin to feel like colin :P

i guess at the end of the day, this is just the unfortunate reality of playing an honour based game, when some people simply have no honour.

If i know iv bin hit i always call it aswell. I hate to lie it takes away the fun of the game for me.

I have a solution to this problem that I play by. Shoot them. If they didn't call hit, shoot them again. If they still don't call it, keep shooting them until they do. There is no part of the body that is off-limits. You show up to a game with a head, arms, legs and a torso, expect all of them to get hit.

I will keep shooting until I hear you call hit. Nobody is so far away that I can't hear the call.

Who says you hit them the first time, or the second time, or the third time? Most BBs don't have a built-in camera to offer you proof.

I get that, and in the exceptions.. the crappy feeling is all you take away..

I've been in similar situations... in this case it was a fellow flagging his gun.. I kept shooting it.. ( we play gun hit is gun out ) he kept pulling it back and poking it out again... Eventually I just waited till I could see the arm.. then fired..

My point is... at the end of the day it does not matter if someone takes it or not.. as long as I know I hit and where..

In the case you describe above.. look at it this way... you shot 30 arms.. so somewhere there are 30 wounded guys.. Did you hold that line.. did you neutralize the advance? did you tie up that entry ... did your skill at arms make a difference when matched against the opponent...

Yes to all.. you win The fact that one fellow.. allowed you to acheive all of that... its a good outcome

a life jacket? Isn't that a little "overboard"?



hahahahahahahahahahahah

well it was his first time in the deep end..

Maybe he was trying to emulate this guy:

http://www.fmft.net/archives/gangsta%2021/gangsta9.JPG

:D

There is a whole power point presentation attached to that picture I'll see if I can dig it up it's hilarious.

Experience
 

I have been around long enough to catalogue in my mind who needs to get some extra BB's and who will call a one shot hit.

I adjust my fire accordingly and bring the pain when that does not work out.

MD

+1

I am usually the first one dead, so I don't have to many problems with ppl calling hits.

Plus I am known for overfiring anyways.

It's ok Amano, you're in good company.

By good, I really mean bad. By company, I really mean me.

Very well said Brian.

I must say I have run into these "cheaters" and also have probably been hit and not felt it thus not called it and then pissed someone off and I'm sure it will happen to all of us if it hasn't.
The attitude that Brian has outlined above is definitely a good way to save yourself some stress if you run into this issue and is an attitude I share I'm glad someone has taken the time and effort to share some good views that should be in my opinion shared by this whole community.

There always seems to be at least one hot head on the field,,Anger is a funny thing.

I know it sounds kind of sick, but I prefer to get hit in a place that really hurts. A) you know you've been hit B) Pain = punishment for getting hit. Pain is an excellent teacher.

I find that when you snipe, you often get people ignore the hits, either because they just don't realize they've been hit (my VSR-10 is not too powerful and I tend to shoot from quite far), or because they're cheaters. But most of the time people just don't realize. I'm not mad at them, but the next shot will be to a more exposed place. Not bare skin, just less kitted spot, like the leg. If I'm really far or the guy is really thick, I go for the goggles, and I've almost never hit people in the face, and even then it doesn't hurt too much because the BB has lost alot of it's velocity once there. Ok Aper might disagree on this one, I got him pretty bad once he he.

I find the goggle shot to be quite satisfying and very effective :D

This is an excellent example of when it just does not matter if they feel it.. if you can shoot someone... and they don't even realize they have been hit.. is that not the most satisfying outcome possible for a Sniper?

They're dead... and they don't even know it..

I think for snipers in particular.. the attitude has to be about personal success. Get the shot.. know you got the shot.. and remain unseen.

What difference if they don't go down? If you hit them once... you can do it again. and the next shot goes someplace meaty.

This whole discussion reminds me of the advanced russian body armor at Boarder Wars ;). Having said that, I'd say there's a limit to how far one can adopt this mindset.

I disagree, you either adopt a mindset or you don't ... it should not be situational.. or provisional..

This is from another forum with basically the same discussion:

I think Brian has hit it on the head with this. At the end of the day, you can be satisfied in knowing that you took them out before they got you.

Unfortunately, lots of times when you hit people at range( especially with a single shot) they either don't feel it, think they felt or heard it then stop to listen for another, or don't call it because they don't see or hear where it came from.

The Key frustrating part for me is when you are in a milsim setting where a key opponent that you should have taken out (medic or leader) could very easily change the course of a battle or a game.

It's all part of the game. Just play fair and set a good example.

excellent post Brian.

it all goes to honesty. If i know for sure i hit him and the victim doesn't feel it or pretends not to feel it. I'll shoot him again. because in the end I know i really did get him and thats what matters. If the victim doesn't admit it then thats his problem; so i try not to take the anger on yourself because thats what the victim wants...to see you pissed becuase he "evaded" your shot.

thats my philosophy when i dealt with opponents like this, and it does keep my frustration down.

Here is where my head is at
 

I know that all of the people I play with or against are honorable, none of them are cheaters..

We shoot with guns firing a very light weight projectile.. it is easy to not perceive a hit. It is always from my perception not their fault that they did not feel it.

If I shoot someone and they do not react.. I assume .. every time that I either missed or they did not feel it.. I give them the benefit of the doubt every time.. and shoot them again.

At the end of the day the only thing we leave the field with is our honour..and I can only control my own behavior.. I am not the arbitor of any one else's honour. All I can do is ensure that I give my friends every opportunity to behave well by making sure that there is no doubt that the hit was good. I can only do this by shooting until I get a clear indication that the hit was good.

In other words, it's full-auto drum magazine madness on the poor bloke's goggles.

Being an airsoft sniper and having guys either not feel the hits, of feel them, look down to where they got hit, then conitnue firing is fucking annoying, not just because of that, but because if you yell at the fucker to call him out you give your position away.

Since I'm one to count kills, any hit I get with my rifle is a kill for me. I decided long ago that I collect kills, I don't wait for the other guy to give me the kill. If I see my rounds hit him and he reacts to it, then ignores it, it's a kill for me. I've gotten two to three kills off one guy before, is why I started counting each hit as a kill. Not only does it prove you did your job (BB on target), but annoucing later publically:

"Hey man, great game, loved killing you those three times from 200ft away!"

"Huh, what do you mean?"

"I shot you three times, each one you felt the hit, looked down to your chest where the BB hit, then ignored it, so I got three kills on you. Thanks!"

Great way to casually point out someoone who plays dishonestly, by publically embarrassing them.

I thought this would be good for the Calgary guys, so I put your post up their Brian. Excellent read.

Stalker....brilliant, absolutely brilliant....that's exactly what I plan on doing now...man that will be fun.

Erm, you were at Border Wars, weren't you?

soft tissue + .28's = pain. Its a solution thats worked well for me.

Other than that, well said Brian. In a one-on-one that is a good philosophy to adopt. If you're a doormat or perhaps a sub.


/RANT START
Unfortunately there are instances where you have two or more teams going at it and you have one group exercising that philosophy and the other doesn't and doesn't call hits, and the game collapses because strategic and tactical objectives are lost to playing zen footsy with a bulletproof asshole. And whats worse than one bulletproof asshole is a team of bulletproof assholes. I've seen many strategies to deal with it, but my favorite is to just let Claymore loose on them. Its very satisfying watching a 250lb Scotsman drop his AK, and walk through a hail of fire and grab some guy by the scruff of the neck in order to gain his attention for some one on one counselling. It usually solves the problem fairly quickly. I believe making examples of cheaters and publically HUMILIATING THEM is a good place to start, rather than to condone their behaviour by passively tolerating it. I've said it many times before and I will say it here. TOLERATION IS A FORM OF CONSENT!

This does not mean I presume that if I shoot in someone's direction I will automatically hit them. But after 5 years of this game, when I have to unload a highcap on someone and they still don't call out, I won't tolerate that and I promise to be loud, rude, obnoxious and will do my best to spoil that person's day, because he's spoiling mine. Conservatively speaking, I think I spend between BBs, batteries, gas, game fee, etc, somewhere near the $100 per game mark (amortize out your equipment costs too) and when some asshole deprives me of my pastime because he decides to turn on GOD MODE, I believe that person is spending MY money on something I did not pay for. He paid to be part of a simulation that we all agreed to, and then he chooses to break that simulation and ruin my enjoyment - I didn't sign up for that. That person has no place at a milsim airsoft event.
/RANT END

My 0.02 cents

Blantant ignoring of hits is an abberation that has to be dealt with.. there is no room in any polite society for people who ignore the rules..

I am talking about not flying off the handle over what could very well be an honest mistake.. There is no need to give the benefit of the doubt.. when doubt is absent.. Fortunatly this is rare..

That guy should have played at Sniper Hunt II last year at Zone 27, I was handing out lots of tampons to the Nordistan guys (including tossing one into their respawn area) with "In case of Sudistan rapage" written in marker on them. Made HellRanger shit himself laughing................... I miss the guy. :(

+1,

Didn't read this before unti lit was quoted, I actually rally like this approach and might actually do it someday. Well, not the 250lb guy thing, but just dropping everything and take a stroll up to the fucker(s) that cheating, and tell them to get the fuck off the field. Might be enough to stir up some nervousness and make them fly straight, if not, at least it'll lead to the next part, outline to the hosts and get their asses banned. Border War was a sight to behold, have never seen that amount of not calling hits before in my 3 years of playing airsoft in Ontario and Quebec. Not that I persoanlly shot someone who didn't call hit (like Scarecrow said, 0.28g + soft tissue = pain), but I witnessed a few times guys didn't call hits even though they had their own personal blizzard around their person.

BTW, I enjoyed hearing the Russian team discussing stuff on the radio, and yelling "*****!!!" into my radio a few times. Still wonder what they thought of that. :D

Don't think for a second
 

That I believe that blatant disregard of the conventions of acceptable behavior should be tolerated...

What I am Advocating is not "acceptance of Cheating"

I am advocating only a "Shoot to effect" No one should go away from an engagement muttering.. "he should have taken that shot" He should not have a choice as he was shot till he took it.

It is unreasonable to expect a person wearing 3 layers of kit.. including 2 layers of magazines to react the same as someone wearing a t shirt to being shot. It will very likely take more "pressure" to get acknowlegement of the hit. This is often compounded with newer players who are frequently not experienced with discerning hits.

Some targets are harder than others.. and need to be shot more to get the result expected.. All I am Saying is shoot em till they go down.. I'd rather deal with people complaining about being shoot too much than deal with people complaining about "cheaters"

Personally If you wanna talk about "cheating" I feel it is a greater cheat to employ a bush for cover.. when it is obvious to all that 3 overlapping Poplar leaves won't stop a bullet. However this is common practice that is little questioned.

One thing that I really object to is branding groups of people as "Cheaters" when we all know that one or two boneheads on a field of 50 people is all it takes for the entire game to go a bit sour and rampant accusatons of widescale cheating to be levied.

As a host... I have a responsibiilty to deal with allegations of people ignoring hits.. despite my personal views on the issue.. I have no issues what so ever turfing someone who has been confirmed to be ignoring hits... I'll do it in a heartbeat... if I think the allegations are well grounded.. and I have done it when it was warranted.
I do it to preserve the Community Standard expectations... As any host should.

Rest assured I am 100% behind the .28 full auto solution.. in fact that is exactly what I am advocating.. Make cheating too painfull to consider.

I agree, and honest mistakes are easy to spot compared to blatant cheating.

Unfortunately the last few games I played last summer, as compared to many years past, I've noticed an increase in the amount of God Mode. Its always people I don't know and that nobody else seems to know or be able to identify.

Perhaps I should get out more, I dunno.

Do any of these fellows trundle along muttering "tank tank tank tank" under their breath?

I was being somewhat bombastic to make a point, but, what I am really saying is if the "cheating" is so bad that the simulation is destroyed already, you have nothing to lose in correcting things by the direct approach. I don't advocate flying off the handle at the first sign of a questionable offense but rather going after those demonstrating a repeated disregard for the conventions that we all as airsofters have agreed to abid by... unfortunately it does not take many bad apples to derail a simulation.

Use the 'reasonable man' test. Is it reasonable to react to this - separating your emotions from it (as hard as it may seem at the time) and say, in an after-action report, would people look upon my attempt to correct the problem as disruptive or constructive. You want constructive obviously, so it really is a judgement call of sorts - not something I think one should make their first reaction - but at some point along the continuum it becomes a necessary response in order to prevent it from continuing.

Look, I KNOW some people at times think Clay and I are or can, or have the capacity to be disruptive at a game because of our intolerance towards this, but its a principled stance that we have decided to take after many years of seeing the alternative possible responses and their results. If it makes me less popular because of it, so be it, but, I do know people signing up for a Scarecrow/WP game KNOW bullshit won't be tolerated, and the game does run smoother because of it.

YMMV.

It seems it is often people who no one know. New players... improperly indoctrinated... Got their gun.. got their gear... and off to a game....with no one taking the time to clue them in. They are excited... and more than a little unclear on the rules...... Who"s fault is it if we let such people to just show up.. and meet expectations that they are not informed about?


This is exactly the reason why I require new players to participate in an indoctrination process at TTAC3. It allows me to put everyone on the same page ... then no one can say " I did not know"

Maybe what we need is a standard Indoctrination course for all new players.

The Sniper course is becoming accepted as credentials for the safe use of Higher power weapons.... Maybe we need to require people to meet a standard to participate? Or at the very least have a mandatory mentoring process.... Aw crap... now I'm talking about the trappings of an Association.

As a new player I would love to have such an Indoctrination course. Its been confusing enough at times trying to understand the laws etc. I know when I read threads such as this, I worry a lot about doing things right.

If you're operating principles start with honor and integrity, there isn't anything you can do wrong in a game that wouldn't be advised on in a friendly manner by an experienced player.

And, yes, Brian with what appears to be the demise of the team farm system (teams are now much more closed entities) there should be some sort of indoc opportunity for new players. CANOP is/was/shall be such an opportunity.

Not saying I'd take that approach and let my temper fly (of which I have none really, as shown when I met Sha-Do, he yelled at me in the face that I have an attitude, and my reaction was "HUH?", Drake who was there as well and knows me went "HUH? Stalker with an attitude? Not fucking likely!").

I shoot a guy, he doesn't call hit, if I saw the hit, I yell at the guy, 95% of the time they realize they got spotted not calling hit, they raise their hand and walk off. If I have to shoot a guy again, fine by me. But the once in a while approach you presented, just drop out of your position in the game and walk up to the guy and tell him can be very effective. I understood your words as just that, face to face "Smarten up!", not literally grabbing the guy and pinning him to a tree. Tempers should never be allowed to fly at any airsoft game. That is MUCH more of a stain on anyone's reputation than repeated not calling hits.

shh wanker the adults are talking :D haha

Wildcard, I heard about that Old fart convention holding you back... speaking of which get your liverspotted ass out to splatters in the new year.


Lol..that's great!

The idea of keep putting rounds into the guy til he does call hit is wise advise indeed (recall telling a person that on thursday as we had a minor case of NCHs in one skirmish)...just part of the piss off with "Armoured Combatants" is that the good players do call their hits even when dealing with ACs and in the end I think that is what is most annoying about the ACs...is that they keep pushing forward and the players who do call hits are sitting out.

Brian you and I deal with small enough groups with indoor games that we can do something about the issue with ID'd cheaters, inform other hosts. I put that warning on the Splatters games this year... You break my rules and cause problems I'll make sure all the other hosts in the area know about you. Maybe we should start doing that with cheaters? ( I know it won't eliminate the problem since indoor venues attract different players and less players overall)... ok now I'm rambling in hopes I can avoid shoveling snow at a house that is not mine.. :D

Maybe not an association of players cause in the number of attempts over the years it has never happened... maybe an association of HOSTS... smaller group. There's what..7 of us in Ontario (primary hosts, not "minions")

Yes real bullets just fly up to heaven......I guess you have never heard the term...."what goes up must come down"?

I thought onf that a while ago, and as long as you're okay with setting yourself up with being accused of running a star chamber, or being elitist, no problem. I don't have an issue with it. I also had some ideas for a sign up system hosts could use to manage attendance at games and rate players, similar to an eBay rating. At a certain level you could ban or temp ban certain people from signing up when they reach a certain threshold, or, bring them to the attention of a group in charge of dealing with players like that (other players who are not the 7 hosts so we don't get accused of nepotism or anything). We would just need a good PHP programmer to make that app, I had it designed a while ago...

I remember the first hit I scored with my sniper rifle. I hit the guy in the leg during an ambush scenario and he just kept going and preceded to kill me. I dont usually call other peoples hit because I feel like an asshole when I do. I went up to him after the game was over and told him that I had actually hit him and that he was out. He preceded to deny it even after I told him that I watched that BB hit him with a 7x scope. It was kind of sad that after the fact he still refused to admit that he was hit. However if I had had my AEG with me my polict would have been to keep hitting him until he call his hit. Like mcguyver said: "You show up to a game with a head, arms, legs and a torso, expect all of them to get hit."

Those rounds don't count as hits in airsoft. Why retards consider them to is beyond me.

My solution:

Keep putting rounds down range until they call their hits, if your sniping, dont give up your postion by firing too many times from the same position. If you know you hit him, and he doesnt call his hits talk to the game host.

Best solution, claymores, 'nades....... with those it will be impossible to "just walk away" without calling your hits, and most of all their loud.

The Population of hosts is much smaller .. and easier to organize than the population of players.

The fact is... if we as hosts and organizers put in place standards and best practice guidelines.. and enforce them... the players will have to accept them.. or not play.

There is already operating an informal player ban mechanism.. as I know of a few players who have been pretty much squeezed out of the main community due to behavior issues.

The building blocks are already in place it is just a matter of formalization.

I want to have a Game Host round table discussion about this exact initiative at TAC-08 it would be good to have as many of the hosts there as possible.

Well, I liked the speech.

thats right as long as you call you hits your having fun cause it real to you not the cheater... i dont even care if their cheating cause that means that i can shot at them more, and like brian said YOU get better not them.

this is why everyone should wear a mask that covers all the skin on your face so you dont bitch when you get shot in the head, personally thats where i shoot our rules state that you need a full face mask.

I got clipped in the chin at Z3... I was running forward as well as leaning forward trying to reach a downed zombie when POW! right in the left side of the chin... I was off balance cause of the leaning and running and I ended up spinning and falling on my back laughing...

I was actually hoping for a decent skin break... or at least a nice war wound to show for it, but I didn't even get a welt or bruise... I felt violated.

Oh well it was fun.

For players who don't know. Right now how it works is this.
You break a rule at a game, that host then informs when he or she remembers, any other host who thinks they need to know (If the player for example is a GTA player with limited transportation..ie the TTC. Then it's usually just the local hosts in the GTA that get told.).

Brian while a round table of HOSTS is a great idea, not sure TAC08 or even CANOP will be the proper venues for this idea... simply put we'd be too freaking busy with everything else we have to look after at either event to sit down with the others to hash out the system.


A sit down meeting away from distractions, with someone taking notes of the whole meeting.

I think as it stands right now break the host groups up into a Western Ontario (Durham region and west) and an eastern Ontario (East of Durham region) set of groups.

We still have ontarioairsoft.com registered and we know the guy who owns airsoftontario.com getting someone to make that php system scarecrow has intergrated should be possible. We know who the hosts are. basically we can sit in our chairs and talk about it or do something. Honestly this is a helluvalot easier than convincing airsofters to organize. As long as they have fun and safe games who really is going to complain? also if they don't like it..they can host their own games...but most fields will prefer using hosts they know and trust (as Joe from FR pointed out...not everyone gets to host afterhours night games).

Scarecrow any association will look elitist. I've reached the point of..don't like it? tough shit. Any host will know the cost and time put into the running of an event, and if we want to make sure we get maximum value our events, getting the best players attending is in the best interests of everyone else going.

as for "other players who are not the 7 hosts so we don't get accused of nepotism or anything." this sounds like an oversite group...which honestly doesnt sound nessecary... if people dont like what's happening it would be easier for them to simply not go to games and arrange their own. having a suggestion area, a place to put postings on status of issues on hand, etc. would be better. I know I have to bite my tongue on occasion when I get someone telling me how to run something or other and who obviously has no clue on how to implement said suggestion. heck we could get a complaint email address setup that get's CC'd to all the hosts on the council or whatever it would be called... so everyone knows when one has an issue...

oh and maybe something to qualify a person to sit with the group... say a specific minimum number of public games hosted and a vote to bring them on board? just a thought

ok rambling again.

I'd be up for a discussion there, everyone is there, might as well take advantage. I agree Zeon, CANOP will be much more problematic to have that discussion - although I think its something we should not wait for CANOP for. It would actually be nice to have something in place by CANOP, something people could be introduced to.

I am not big on complex governance or anything corporate. The simplier and more automatic we make they system, the better it will serve both hosts and players. I really like the idea of a system that lets me leverage information that say TTAC gets on participants that I can then become aware of when I host my next event. As it stands now its take 3 or 4 events for an asshat to generally come to the attention of all of us. The system I am proposing would identify problems earlier and hopefully let us intervene earlier and rescue what might be a good player who's just not 'getting it'.

I'm not proposing any policy making .. just an informal meeting around a table at TAC-08.. 30 minute discussion regarding where we want to go, what we want to do... how much.. and on what time line.

Anything that gets implemented has to be devoted to facilitating the indoctrination of new players.. and remedial action on problem players..the course of punitive action has to always be a last resort. I think that right now we are quick to write off players earlier than maybe we should.. or could if we had some remedial actions available.

+1

the problem will always exist, no mater how much we control it, my question to ALL the organizers are why can't we curb the cheaters out??
I had a chance to play with an old teamate last year and this is in Hong Kong where they play with ridiculously high fps limit for indoors and outdoors, and rarely is there any arguments about cheating and these guys are mostly kitted out to the tits, i saw a guy playing with a replica level4 vest with foam inserts.

I certainly do not want to play with crazy fps aeg anymore i'm too old for that shit and i have done that trust me it gets very expensive, but i don't see a viable solution other than forcing players to go through some sort of training or certification program to play then maybe the rating system Scarecrow mention will work. by just simply banning players from organize games will only force them to go else where and spawned another group of potentially dangerous and irresponsible players without the benefit of the proper education of the game

"I am not big on complex governance or anything corporate. The simplier and more automatic we make they system, the better it will serve both hosts and players. I really like the idea of a system that lets me leverage information that say TTAC gets on participants that I can then become aware of when I host my next event. As it stands now its take 3 or 4 events for an asshat to generally come to the attention of all of us. The system I am proposing would identify problems earlier and hopefully let us intervene earlier and rescue what might be a good player who's just not 'getting it'."

totally agree on the above comment by Scarecrow but what we should concentrate first is how can we help those players to play the game as it was intended to be played

maybe the way the game has evolved an oversite commitee or some sort of governance is what we needed

Needs more Darwin.

To some extent yes, but Darwin also creates intense friction at a game, on the boards, etc. To an earlier point, as much as it pains me to admit it, it really is up to those of who have played for a while to take new players and somehow get them indoctrinated BEFORE they hit the field for the first time and make all of those embarassing and deadly mistakes that can result in a bad rep for months or years.

A target rich environment is only available when you have enjoyable targets to play with. An enjoyable target is one that knows the rules and plays by them and stays in the sim. I think things like the Plantation Noob day or other events like CANOP can do a lot to lessen potentially bad incidents and it also gives no excuse to those who choose to behave unacceptably when such events are available to be attended.

Jesus, sounds like OASA all over again. Please god, just shoot me dead right now.

I like the host controlled online rating and invite/signup system.

Well...
 

One of this issues with "getting organized" in the past has been quarum of players..

if we organize in the middle.. with the hosts... then we don't need to agree to any majority mandate.. We can as a small group make decisions that can be implemented ..

Its already happening.. Zeon has been pushing this direction for a while.. and frankly there is no reason not to get it going ...

It is a heck of a lot easier to get 6 -10 people on the same page than it is to get 200-500

Short term.. we agree to feedback loops for censure of abusers.
We harmonize a very basic ruleset.

Longer term we implement indoctrination procedures for players, The hosts.. as a group essentially are in a position to impose structure..we do already every time we publish rules..

And the population of players already accept the authority

In my opinion, it all comes down to the host (Milsim or run and gun games).
Now the host(s) can’t watch the whole field at once, and not give away players position, so select (trusted) players (paintball ref, for run and gun) should be put in charge of keeping an eye on the section of the field they are in/playing. ‘Select’ player(s) shouldn’t be a friend/teammate, of host, unless respected by players of that game. If these players are kept a secret, beside other ‘selected’ players, then it’ll keep the rest of the players on their toes.

For the players that don’t ‘feel the hit’, because of bush or layers of kit, he/she should look at the situation around them.
For example: there was one game, at Flagswipe, that I got behind a group of enemy players and emptied a full mag on 5 of them. There was another player, behind tree/bush, that killed me witch lead to a min of quite as we sorted things out. I can’t remember all the players name, but Sha Do was in his guille suits second furthest player from me, everyone raise there hand and called hit. Sha Do turned to me and said (something to the effect of) “did you hit me”, I’m 95% sure I did (maybe I just hit the guille fabric), I said “yes” and he then followed suit and we all walked to side of the field to let the rest of the players play on. Now maybe Sha Do had too many layers on, or maybe I didn’t actually hit him, I respect the fact that he didn’t argue the call and took the death like a man.

We all need to remember this is just a game. If it’s a run and gun game 5-10 minutes later, depending on size of group and game type, everyone will start a fresh round and shouldn’t be calling other player(s) hit or not calling their hit. Now for Milsim game you may spend an hour crawling to a key spot, only to be shot by another player (stray shot), then you should take note and improve you tactic/skill.