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What is your true definition of "Milsim"
Hey all,
Recently a group of us returned from a Blacksheep game Op: Guernsey pretty disappointed from the game. Lots of weather issues, etc so there was delays, issues, etc. The issue we came up with though is the definition of "Milsim" it seems that Milsim involves lots of delays, game pauses for resets, more or less a giant Skirmish game of "take X, Defend Y, on no X is taken go get it" No rhyme or reason why. So i'd like to ask what is the general opinion of Milsim or perhaps my views on it are different and my expectations are unreasonable? As a backstory i've been playing for 13 years, have attended dozens of 24 hour games, and host very successful milsim games here in Calgary. In my mind this is what Milsim should be. 1. Constant gameplay. No not slinging BB's at each other for the entire time, but the game is always going no matter what. No pauses to bring the cars in, no pauses for a reset. No going back to your car to get your gear/bbs/batteries/etc. 2. Possibility of downtime. I don't mind resting and chatting with the squad. I don't need to always be on field. I don't expect 100% time of bb slinging. 3. Some sort of backstory. You are X force trying to take Y land for Z reason. At least some level like that. 4. Missions with an actual objective. Go and capture X objective and capture Y object within that area. Perhaps it's an actual intel piece that leads to a new mission. Again no capturing of X objective with no reason. So i'd like to put it out to the crowd is this an unreasonable expectation? Should I lower my expectation at games that I personally don't plan? I'd love to see the opinions of folks from across the country and even internationally. |
We as airsofters throw it around really loosely.
In strict definition, none of us milsim. In fact, most of us look down upon milsim players. (that team from mb which dare not be named) is milsim. They do 100% militarized ops, and airsoft is just a prop. They don't play airsoft, they play pretend war, and they do it within very strict guidelines. What we refer to as milsim, is just staying as realistic as possible, within certain reasonable confines, yet maintaining the fun and atmosphere of airsoft. Strict milsim is not fun for 95% of airsofters lol The big thing for typical airsoft milsim is looking good, and having constant gameplay. Milsim for us is 24 hour games with little or no rest period, no resets, dynamic gameplay, and usually some good tactics and actual planning thrown in. And realistic objectives, take and hold ground, rescue some dude, disarm a bomb. Our general idea of milsim, is battlefield or COD but people actually go out when you shoot them lol |
I started playing in late 2006, first full year was 2007, and up until, about 2010, MILSIM was something entirely different than what it is today.
When i started, there where 3 types of games, scrims, OPs, and MILSIMS Scrims: not much need to explain this one, quick pickup games with basic rules and limited objectives. one person usually takes charge on game day. OPs: More planned out than a scrim; had set (usually multiple) objectives, teams you had to preregister for, team leaders, at least a loose back story. Game is run by an individual or group, and are set organizers, and often act as admins for the game. these games often have a "safe zone" usually a spawn area, to store gear, eat food ect. game lengths would vary, 4-12hrs MILSIMS: Basically an extremely in depth OP. on top of what OPs had, they often had proper chain of command, radio procedures, teams are better organized into squads and given different taskings. solid back story and evolving mission objectives. these games could go on for multiple days (in MB for a while there used to be a 7 day sniper hunt game run about once a year) there was NO safe zone to eat or sleep, going back to your car was not permitted, if you needed it, it damn well better be on the field. Right around 2009-2010 (at least in MB) the hardcore MILSIM games dried out, there where still a couple, but usually only a select group would play and games were not posted to the public. what ended up happening is, new people started running "MILSIMS" that where actually OPs, and the term "Milsim" was dumbed down. I know lots of people who considered Claybank a MILSIM, when it was actually an OP (a big OP but still an OP) I know there are still people running true oldschool style milsims, but i find they very rarely get posted, they are just shared between guys who play them nearly exclusively. so the tl;dnr.... the term MILSIM no longer means what it did 6-7 years ago, it has been dumbed down to basically be on par with well run OP. |
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Gish,
now you gone and done it... cracked open ASC debate number 21-b What is Milsim.. Military Simulation. mil·i·tar·y /ˈmiləˌterē/ Adjective Of, relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces: "both leaders condemned the buildup of military activity". Noun The armed forces of a country. Synonyms adjective. martial - warlike - soldierly noun. army - armed forces - troops sim·u·la·tion (smy-lshn) n. 1. The act or process of simulating. 2. An imitation; a sham. 3. Assumption of a false appearance. 4. a. Imitation or representation, as of a potential situation or in experimental testing. b. Representation of the operation or features of one process or system through the use of another: computer simulation of an in-flight emergency. MILSIM The act or process of simulating relating to, or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces in action. IN my opinion much that is billed as MILSIM is not, and I have been serially disappointed with most events that I have attended as a participant. To the point that I have pretty much withdrawn from the wider community and focused my attention on WWII reenactment events. This is where "real Milsim" is happening. Things like Running wire for communications, Digging in and building defences for an attack that may not come. Encamping in the field, Rehearsing operations and conducting ongoing training in the field. Employing formations, commands and procedures according to a national doctrine. Building units with the appropriate mix of weapons and equipment and deploying them as they would have been. Feeding troops in the field. Adhering to operational timings, Navigating terrain, and reporting to superiors. Real objectives, and commanders who can plan operations sequentially to achieve those objectives. and units that concede to be commanded. Essentially behaving a doing those things that soldiers do in a combat zone. What you are looking for is "a day in the life" of a small unit of both sides of a conflict.. and then bringing those two sides together through providing a combative context.. give them a reason to fight. Since I got involved in the WWII community my satisfaction with my military simulation experiences has rebounded and redoubled.. I'm not looking back. Military Simulation is not.. Green VS tan .. body count slugfests, it is not 'FRAGOS" with no purpose, it is not flipping flags, or snatching "nukes" it is not taking and holding ground that has no tactical or strategic relevance. It is not searching the forest for baskets of Easter eggs to trade in for "points" that no one cares about. it is not a live action video game, composed of endless firefights against respawning hordes of lone wolf attackers who have no sense of self preservation. |
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I would hardly call that a "airsoft game" it is historical reenactment employing airsoft guns a weapon simulators Exactly the same thing as the various WWII reenactments that happen every year around here .. Milsim is common, just not in the "mainstream" airsoft community. |
Milsim to me gish is objectives. As you know with me, I enjoy the scavenger hunts.
But you need to knock out this to get to that, which gets you this. |
Milsim. If you're not cold, tired & sore by the end of it; or haven't thought at least once of shooting yourself in the foot out of boredom, you're doing it wrong.
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The term "milsim" varies so much, depending on which groups you ask, that I've stopped using it for my projects.
For some it encompasses a lot of aspects of reenactment, accurate gear, etc; for others it's the scenarios/missions, having a chain of command; for others yet it's real cap loadouts and a specific mindset and operating under "realistic conditions" (there's another can of worms), etc etc etc ad nausium. Globally, in its simplest definition, it should be about an event which reasonably resembles the conditions associated with a real military operation. And most importantly, participants should espouse a sufficient temporary suspension of disbelief to fully immerse themselves in the experience -- not least of which would be treating the risk of being shot by a plastic BB as if it were a real bullet. But that's pretty (extraordinary) broad, which leads to the confusion/varying definitions. |
I'm not adding to what the definition of Milsim is but of what I find important(my experience/opinion). It doesn't matter to me if its real cap, or if the uniforms and loadouts are perfect (though it would be cool if they were), what matters is that the objectives are understandible and simple enough to follow, and that the people you play against dont cheat and follow the rules. To me it's not about 100% accuracy(because you have to have everyone on board to accomplish that) it's about enjoying it. I don't care about winning as long as I knew what we were trying to do/accomplish and I tried my hardest. If the other team beat me fare and square without cheating, I'm just as happy as if I had won. Long story short, I think true Milsim is awesome, but not the most important thing.
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But I wonder what's the people's opinion on having this concept on a variable scale in the same airsoft event. My idea is that one group of players might be simulating regular/professionnal military roles while another group, probably the opposing players, might be simulating (or playing the part of) miltias/rebels/civilians and or terrorists which would, I suppose, require less involvement, uniform impression, dedication, rules of engagement. This is probably most suitable for modern airsoft than historical airsoft whereas both sides were trained soldiers following strict chain of commands. |
Variable scale at the same event fails.. if you don't have everyone on the same page and fully engaged you don't have Milsim.
most of the world's conflicts today are between "regular" and "irregular" forces I've been running a milsim of this type for .. 6 years running at this point in the DEADFALL series. DEADFALL 2014 is coming up at the end of the month.. it is my idea of Milsim, with a story line that is now approaching 7 years in development. |
That scenario happens all the time.
It's harder to pull off than a strict milsim. The less disciplined insurgent force with less commitment gets you exactly that. The lack of commitment and disciple results in frustration for the more committed players as their opposition dog fucks the day away. |
Indeed... the key is to not invite skirmishers to your Milsim
Far far too often quality of experience is sold out to quantity. Everyone wants " big games" but to get big games you have to open the game up to the public and take all comers. you can't expect the mouth breathers and Kraken toting mag ticklers to give up their "fun" and engage in actions that require more refinement than fast twitching on a trigger just because you want them to. Lots of games that have had good potential get screwed up because the wrong people showed up and decided to play the game they always play, regardless of what you have planned. |
Some interesting comments. From what I gather from most folks the definition of Milsim has slipped over the years with the senior players/planners thinking something different then what is actually being offered up these days.
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I think what has happened in many cases, is the general progression and mutation of airsoft naturally. Thunder Cactus really touched on this in his post. Airsoft is a game, and/or a series of games that have been adapted into many personalized tangents, i.e. Milsim, reenactment, speedball, role play, etc. For most players, modern military scenario is the best and by far the most dynamic way to play. What the hardcore gamers have run into, is that unless your doing strict training ops, then not everything translates over well from military into airsoft. I like to think that the more mainstream style of play is slowly making it's way into a more concrete fashion, somewhere between a progressive sport and military simulation. As a player, the military aspect is paramount as the base framework for any game. You can use this effectively in communication, objectives, storyline, tactics, etc to maximize the experience. The flip side however is this; I play myself as an airsofter, and at no time do I think or portrays soldier. I'm here for the competition, and extreme sport aspect, not to drill and train for an eventual nothing. I know my enemy will return once I shoot him out, I know my gun can miss at fifty feet even when pointed straight, and not all military tactics will work against an opponent that doesn't have to worry about death or dismemberment; and therefore my battleplan must take into account all of these things.
Run real caps, leave bodies where they fall, no re-spawn reinforcements, strict objectives and timeline; that would be closer to military simulation. In essence, it really comes down to the balance between the two aspects, and how it adapts over time. You want the realism, and you need the fun factor. |
The team I play on, the South Manitoba Rifles, strives for an equal balance between "mil-sim styled airsoft" and "military re-enactment". We believe those two components, in proper balance, make a compelling mix.
We participate annually in Operation East Wind, where a third element, "military vehicle collectors" gets added to the mix. You've never really experienced mil-sim until you've ridden into battle in the back of an APC or faced off against a real ex-Soviet BTR! :D |
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Quantity =/= quality |
I'm fairly new into Airsoft, been at it for 2 years. I only went to one; I guess it was an OP. The zombie game at PRZ. I was actually expecting a full night of gaming out in the field, I planned ahead with packing food and water on me because I was under the impression we wouldn't be going back to a safe point/car.
I guess my definition or explanation of a milsim is a whole event played in one go with realistic goals and objectives, and realistic consequences. Something that makes you fear/question your actions. I personally like to role play and such (D&D) so I try to really put my mind into it, those plastic BBs are bullets, I can not act recklessly, be a lone wolf and such. Also I like the idea of a close small operating group, we're like brothers (and sisters if applicable) and we cover our asses, and just try to put the feels in protecting each other because no one wants to "die". So I guess this is what I expected from milsim, and even though I have yet to go out to possibly a "real" milsim, it is what I'm hoping to get from the experience. Just my two cents on what I kind of thought/expected from my first Milsim once I choose one. |
I loved the big milsims, but sadly with the team that is not mentioned pulling back from the scene, there isnt much going on. We still run small <40 player milsims, but it's still not the same. I miss my pack :(
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"fun" means different things to different people... the key is to collect all the right people together and provide that group with their idea of fun. I had 16 guys at TTAC3 all last weekend for a 2 day CQB training course.. force on force was the last 2 hours of 16 hours of training. there was 14 hours of dry runs, drills, and shooting paper.. There are not very many people that want this kind of experience,and fewer still who will pay for it, but those that do want as much of it as they can get. Serious players, wanting to learn serious skills.. so that they can dominate regular players in all situations and circumstances. I have guys who have been investing in training for years, these same people have committed to transforming their bodies and making investments in fitness, specifically to improve their performance and ability in the field. they have invested thousands in the best equipment, and tools to hone their competitive advantage to a keen edge. They systematically knock down barriers to peak performance. The mind set of these players is distinctly different from most, they play hard, they play to win, they tolerate discomfort, they are aggressive, and unapologetic about it. And more and more, dissatisfied with the opposition they face at public games. Their idea of what is fun is quite different than your typical "Saturday afternoon operator" Often they are accused of cheating, or "bad sportsmanship" by those that are swept aside by them, but the fact is.. they are just that much better, physically, technically and mentally, not because they are somehow, "Superior" but because they have bought and paid for the training, and practice and equipment necessary to get good at the game. Challenging players like this is not easy from a game host standpoint. maintaining game balance when you mix in all levels of players can be a nightmare of compromise.. often ending up with everyone mildly pissed off. The fact is a new player, with half a season under their belt has no business being on the same field with such players, That new player is just finding their feet, and figuring out how to play, what works what does not, how to get things done, and what they find fun. Getting slaughtered at every turn can be a real damper to their fun, and it's not much of a challenge to well trained , equipped and motivated players to deal with. putting the two together serves as a disincentive to participation for both. This is the perennial challenge for game organizers, how do you create an environment where all levels and types of players can get what they want and need from your games. In some cases, it can't be done, and certain games are for certain players and the non focus group has to be excluded. new players can always benefit from the presence of experienced players, obviously, But the reverse is not always true. This is often why we see long time , and experienced players withdraw from the wider community to enclaves of specialized focus, such as more "reenactment" type activities where new challenges can be met with those assured of being of like mind. |
Well since East Wind was brought up here I figure I’ll hop in and say a few words since I am the guy who came up with East Wind.
Brian basically nailed it, the big thing with “serious” Milsim has more to do with providing an outlet for guys who are looking for more than what is available in the basic weekend game or “normal” OP. Some examples: Depth of experience By the time attendees get to the point where they are interested in serious milsim events they have all had their airsoft weapons for a while and have gotten to the point where shooting them is not really the number one goal at an event. They are looking for a chance to put into use some of the other skills they have picked up in an environment where it actually matters. Non-milsim example: You get told “go take hill 123” and haul butt off to do it quickly since it’s the start of the game and you know that right now there is a guy just like you but with a tan hat being told “go take hill 123” Milsim example: You sit in on the Company opord so you can hear your piece of the puzzle then figure out how you need to accomplish your part of it. You KNOW why hill 123 needs to be taken, you know what happens if you fail, you know what success looks like, and you have a personal investment in the outcome. Less focus on balance Contrary to what most people (who have not attended reenactment style milsim events) might say, there is a LOT less scripting generally going on and equally as important there is a lot less interest in “making it fun”. This means that you are actually free to completely succeed at your mission without having to worry about game balance. Non-milsim example: You have your act together, your enemy does not. You manage to slip into a key spot and are really making a nuisance of yourselves inflicting horrid casualties and totally disrupting enemy operations. So the admins kill your team with an “air strike”. He’s not being a jerk, he needs to keep the game balances out so that everyone is having fun. Sad fact is, to people who are not very good at our sport getting pantsed is not regarded as having fun. Milsim example: You made a mistake and now you are paying for it in spades. The enemy has almost all of their objectives, your forces are in disarray but you have a plan to turn the tables. Since the admins are not going to hand you an even playing field on a silver platter, when you turn the tables on the enemy, it will be your success and you’ll walk away with your heads held high. If you fail, then you’ll know it and will come back next time prepared to do better. Less focus on attrition, more focus on leadership and management Ever been to a game where you shoot the fat kid with the Multicam boonie cap then 10 minutes later you shoot the fat kid with the Multicam boonie cap then 10 minutes later you shoot the fat kid with the Multicam boonie cap then 10 minutes later he finally gets you? Does it matter that you had your act together? Does it matter that you took your objective quickly with minimal losses and dug in fast and well? Does it matter that you have interlocking fields of fire, good comms, claymores in place and a plan? Not if the enemy’s respawn point is 200 meters away and they have an endless supply of fat kids with Multicam boonie caps… Non-milsim example: Look at any event map, the closer you get to the enemies spawn points, the shorter your stay time… Simple as that. It’s part of the game. (for better or worse) Milsim example: In 6 years of East Wind events, we have never had a full time player able to spawn back into the same gun battle. You deal a telling blow to the enemy and they will feel every bit of it Consequences for your actions Players like to pull off something that has serious ramifications that ACTUALLY have a tangible effect on both the event and their quality of life as well. Non-milsim example “You must deliver these barrels to point X” Why? So your team gets points and can win etc. You do it, you get some satisfaction from it etc but it’s not quite the same thing as… Milsim example: At East Wind 5 a contingent of Canadian Forces troops spent an entire night working from place to place behind enemy lines planting seismic intrusion devices that for the next 5 days sent out radio signals alerting NATO of every single Warpac patrol transiting their own rear areas. [b]Ability to use specialized equipment, ability to NEED specialized equipment. Ever been shopping for goodies and seen that one really cool thing that you’d just love to have but in all reality, you’ll never get to use it… Non-milsim example: You spend the better part of 2 months building a super nice mortar out of steel in your shop. Weigh is right, balance is right, it comes apart into 3 pieces and can be manpacked, you have a working T&E, you have marker posts, you can do legit indirect fire (albeit short ranged) etc. Then… Well what then? It’s cool as the other side of the pillow but it not that useful at a normal event, at an “OP” it will just be another 80 pounds of something for your team to deal with so at best it becomes a prop. Milsim example: You know the feeling you get when you hear a armored vehicle bearing down on your unit that has no anti-armor weapon so you spend months creating an answer to that problem knowing that next time you are in that spot it’s the other guy who’s going to have a reason to worry. Anyhow, I’ll cut this off here rather than drowning everyone in text… |
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Well Aswayze pretty much summed up what I'd expect from a "Milsim". Sounds amazing.
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Helicopters.
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you don't need hundreds of people and armoured vehicles to get the same feelings and experiences. EASTWIND is a great example of what MILSIM can be .. but it can also be much smaller.. and more focused. Over the past year I have been involved in several small scale operations that included intelligence aspects, that defined mission parameters. through analysis of intelligence we defined a target and a date, and a scope of operation.. on that date and location we deployed a specially trained unit with specific ROE and objectives.. between initial warning order, intelligence gathering and mission profile development and unit selection and training these operations took an average of 3 months to complete. The actual operations were often concluded within about 1.5 hours ( some less , like 40 minutes ) the shooting part was just the culmination of the intelligence gathering, preparation and Training. These were 1 life operations, no respawn, if you are hit you are dead for the operation. When you do things like this, you get a quality of experience that is unmatched in any other event. One of the operations we did was surveillance and intelligence interception in an urban environment.. no shots were fired.. but it was still a very stimulating MILSIM |
Like Brian said, fun means different things to different people.
I always say we can't bash paintballers and speedballers for doing their thing, because they and real steel shooters alike bash us for doing what we do lol Like Lindz, I'm in this for the challenge and competition. And as he said, it's not that we purposely portray soldiers, or want to be pretend war fighters, but the best way to organize ourselves and train in our sport just happens to be extremely similar to real military stuff. Our hardware emulates theirs, and so the tactics and training are naturally also very similar. The whole basis of airsoft really is to emulate real world counterparts, otherwise we'd all have fantasy guns. The line is really determined with the individual, whether you couldn't make it in the military so you do this, or you want something a bit more serious than paintball, or you see it as a sport. |
The term Milsim, to me, is tossed around like a bag of potatoes and is truly sad for those who are actually trying to put on real milsim games.
After all, how many games have been posted that said:
Bam. Milsim Really? What exactly is the difference? One storyline is the fall of a government, and another is an uprising of the xxx forces? Again, I have huge respect for the hard core guys that do this and play games geared only to these people. But when I read AAR's of these games, and can pick off guys who have come to my field and know cant last 4 hours- its a bit of a stretch to wonder how 18-24 hours goes. The goal needs to be clarified, and often it goes back to making the numbers vs offering the experience as described. Numbers is often the root cause of the problem. It should not be the goal but the outcome. I really believe if Milsim games were posted that absolutely did not allow newbs and filtered the players severely, the games would be at the next level. It does take some balls to do this, but the end game might wind up pulling the hard core guys all to the same game. I can assure you, in this situation, you would not have guys wondering off to the cars for 2AM beer-in battle. And if you think this is out of line, think of all the milsim games played/posted in the past 2 years and re do them with only the guys that "should" have been at the game. Imagine the outcome. |
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Yeah You know it All Brian
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Hug away
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Wow indeed.
As for the topic; Milsim is a 4-letter word and should not be used under any circumstances. The style of game most commonly found to be the most fun is a multi-objective continuous scenario with evolving objectives, LOOSE guidelines and a parking lot lockdown. I.e. large scale scenario = fun. Don't enforce HOW a team should organize. No one likes a micro manager. |
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I have also provided clues in the backstory as to the possibility of this happening. In addition anyone who choses to accept such a risky role goes in with ONE life with no respawn. If they get caught.. they are out of the game. Can you imagine the satisfaction of the player who executes their mission successfully? I can, because I have seen it happen those players come back. I have also used ongoing games to provide training opportunities for third forces to conduct single objective one life missions within the context of an ongoing game without the knowledge of the other players. In one game I had 5 different factions operating on the field Most people only knew of 2. But as the game went on evidence of the activities of unknown forces became suspected .. then known. in most cases these things are very successful in providing an element of confusion, and stress within the players, and frankly it's the only means to attract some players who have withdrawn from the wider community. Of course this does mean that my games are not GREEN vs TAN line up and pull triggers kind of affairs.. you have to pay attention, think and be aware of your weak spots lest they be exploited. You have to read and analyze the back stories to bring context to the game. You may be required to interact with opposing forces or unknown elements in more than a "lets get em!" context.. I can tell when people don't bother to do these things because they end up confused, distressed and in some cases upset when things get "weird" and often they don't come out to my games anymore. Which in fact self corrects the problem. I know we differ in our approach to game design, but I'm pretty sure there is room for everyone. Clearly FR has a winning series in nightfall.. people like it, everyone likes it milsim players, and skirmishers alike, so you're doing something right. It's clear that you don't like "my kind of games" that challenge players to do more than load mags and count bodies and that is ok, not everyone has to. But we do have to work together and respect each other. We play in the same sandbox. |
Plus 1 on " wow indeed"!
As a long time standing member of ASC, I often disagree with Brian on core issues, and I have encountered massive support and/or opposition on many of these. You however waited to take a public shot at Brian for self gratification; shame on you. Gish asked what is everyone's interpretation of airsoft milsim is, and everyone is entitled to their opinion within reasonable means, especially including someone like Brian. What was the purpose of your comment sir? Anyways, I used the remark "fun" open ended, but yes it varies from person to person. As pointed out though, a 'simulation' is what it is, and must include reasonable dynamics to call itself such. You'd be more likely to hit a true milsim in a short and to the point operation, than an endurance game. I guess a fair question is, "what is your goal?". |
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I was in the Military for 8 years and on 2 Operational tasking, I can assure you when you talk about MILSIM...unless it is the real thing it ain't period. I have yet seen a game bring out true MILSIM however I have been to games where the game host tries to bring in realism/tasking/simulation in the enviroment that challenge you as a leader or your Squad. I was a Senior NCO in the Army Reserves and have pushed Troops to the brink on TRG and Courses. MILSIM to me is game where I am looking for a better OP then scrimming...Mission or Missions set for the Operational Tasking on hand. Fair to both sides...not where one side gets a real mission while another goes on a fucking treasure hunt. Most OPs/MILSIM aren't true in an aspect due to the capabilies of the weapons used ie. You hide behind bush, I shoot through the bush, in the real world your dead in airsoft you hang on in most cases until the assault goes through and you can take out a couple ppl...Fire fights are never really won in some cases because most of the fighting happens in 30 meters minus your basically in the assault before the Firefight is won, the physical fitness of Troops/ppl who play are not in the best shape...hey I am 20 pounds heavier then what I should normally be but I still work out I can still run and Bench press 260lds for a set 6 (don't box anymore) point I am getting too is Cove was 24 hour OP that I completed and My Squad for 24 hours./ OP Sovereign Fury was 30 hour Op which I fought the Fight for 27 hours 15 mins and finished the OP, most players can't do 24 hour MILSIM let alone 18 hours. MILSIM Brian isn't what you say, what I say or even what Force Recon says. MILSIM is percieved in different perceptions by other ppl. I only have been on 2 shit show games in the 5 years I have been involved in the community, recently in Atlanta Georgia and Barrie last summer...no Brian I didn't think OP Deadfall 2 was a shit show, I had some reservations but the gameship amoungst the players in hit calling was fair. The only reservation I had was at the end, however that game is now over done with. Airsoft Canada en bodies everyone on this forum...everyone has an opinion. Game host will introduce games and land mark it "MILSIM"...the game host who has the BEST SCENARIO/MISSION/REALISM/HONORABLE PLAYERS AND STAFF/REASONABLE GAME ADMISSION will get my money and my time. Just because a GAME HOST states the Game is MILSIM (or 30 hours) doesn't mean the cost should be high and if it is there better be something substantial given back to the players along with their experience. Now I am 1 of the Commanders For Force Recon MILSIM, this post does not reflect my Team members Opinions. However 1 thing for sure at any game this TEAM gives 100% win or lose, I push the the shit out of my guys TRG (not as bad as I 1rst started)...the best games we as Team have been to is South of the border minus Atlanta Georgia...I have yet been to a game in Canada that fills that void (RHINO 1 was close to the bullshit at the end.."maybe play acting got involved" and ruin it for some...AAR reflected it the short comings but ppl chest thumped and ignored them)...with that being said I like too see another Game Host in Canada run a MILSIM with true objectives/mission set/2 teams that follow the Chain of Command/ Realism with a Espirit De Cours and Comraddie during and at the end of the game. With that being said I think Csk should give it another Try, I for one will attend. Again this post does not reflect my Teams Opinion, this is mine and mine alone. Q |
MILSIM isn't really a binary concept, it's more of a spectrum. The deeper you go into the simulation side of things the further you get away from military, and vice versa. Sure you could have a 30 hour game where two sections are to patrol a forest, interact with locals, investigate and try and find the insurgents operating in the area (With, maybe, *gasp* one life only?) Heavily focused on a scenario which you could very well encounter in real life with rules set to reinforce that scenario. Most people don't really consider the "talking with the locals" aspect military, instead the image always comes back to two nations duking it out. Cool. No problem with that. As you structure the rules to really focus on that element of it and streamline the event, you lose out on the smaller nuances and end up with games where all you do is capture control points and react to enemy movement.
There are very few games that I have felt combined some of the best aspects of both; the shooting and the little bit of roleplay to manipulate the play space. Most of those games have been under Brians command. What makes those games really pop is that the instructions are very clear on what the scope of the game is; what is and is not possible. At last years Deadfall he stipulated that there civilians in play, how to detain them, how to search them, and what each teams instructions were on encountering them. At last years Deadfall there was a point where I was with two team mates and our path was directly blocked by about 20 JOTF members. I gave my weapon to a team mate and offered myself as a distraction. I went up to the soldiers, started talking to them, making a bunch of noise so my friends could sneak through the forest without being heard. I was searched, detained, and brought back to their HQ and questioned. I was eventually executed when they found out I was an insurgent... Before putting a bullet in my head they were being nice, offered me food... Their security was lax and I overheard some things, and had four distinct opportunities to grab an unsecured weapon, shoot my captors, and escape. Everything was in play, within the scope of the rules, and wouldn't have been a surprise to players had I chose to make a Rambo attempt. My team mates made it past their patrol back to base, I collected intel; all without a single round being fired (except for the one that went into the back of my head) Thats my personal favourite blend of MILSIM. It allows you to think of solutions that may or may not involve dispensing BB's at foes. When you have too much roleplay people won't sign up, and if you have too much GOGOGOGOGOGOGO MILITARY then people consider it a skirmish. Whether a game is 8 hours or 24 hours doesn't really change if it's a MILSIM. I think what we can agree on is a majority of events billed as "MILSIM" in Canada, isn't. |
have the teams evenly matched and I dont care if fat kid in multicam or paintballer guy bows out after 4 hours... aslong as theres still people fighting until the end...
when you have known asc names vs peoples names youve never seen before and the game is falling apart when its getting dark, what do you expect? when you got good names on both sides, and guys pushing till the end of the game that stuff rubs off on noobs and other players who usually quit. look at athena 2... it was fighting right up until the very end. |
+1 on what Crom said.
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one of the things that has not been mentioned is that every game is what you make it. MILSIM exists wherever you want it to. It comes out of your approach to the game.
it is certainly possible for a unit of any number of players to be conducting a MILSIM right in the middle of a Skirmish. I have been at and commanded company sized units at games where the two sides had radically different experiences at the same game. One side had a positive engaging "milsim" like experience the other, as shit show of poor organization, bad feelings and wholesale "rage quit" AT THE SAME GAME... in AAR you see the relating of very different experiences, you wonder if people were at at the same game. ( in fact they were not, despite the fact they shared the field) One of the key aspects of a simulation is always the mind set of the participants, if they get into it, play the role. treat the situation as if it was real, act and react as if what is happening is real, then you can break through the confines of the game and create an experience that is at the next level. It requires a suspension of reality, and a willingness to step through to an alternate reality where 6mm plastic bbs can kill you. This mindset is very prevalent in the Reenactment end of the milsim spectrum, and also why I find myself there more and more. That and I love oldschool gear and guns. MILSIM is not created by a game host, or by a rule set,(though a bad rule set can get in the way) it's created by the participants and their ability to engage in a scenario, and alternate reality placed in existence by the game designer. If players go with you into this alternate reality, some pretty amazing things can happen. But if they stand outside and shoot in.. it fails. I've had lots of really successful games ,, and lots of utter failures, and in every case it came down to the people who came. Consequently I am choosy as to who I permit to attend my games now. I don't care about "big games" ( I'm also very choosy about what games I participate in, due to old injuries the physical toll is high for me, so if I'm going to endure a couple of weeks of hard pain, I had better get what I want ) I don't do this to make money.. despite what some people believe. I do it to bring people along to places I want to go. |
Nothing quite like discussing gaming styles to bring us all out from our troll bridges…
http://fatkidsuit.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/legit.jpg I’ll put in a few more comments here based on what some others have said. Brian said: “but you don't have to go to a "big game in the USA" to get it you don't need hundreds of people and armoured vehicles to get the same feelings and experiences.” EXACTLY!! In point of fact, I think it is easier to have a really good milsim experience if you stick with a smaller group in general. Here’s an example from one of the things we do over the winter in the lead up to East Wind. We run training events generally in the fall focused mostly on leadership and hard skills such as comms and/or equipment training then over the winter months we run a series of what we call Fieldcraft Weekends which are actually nothing more than a series of challenges that we put groups through in order to allow them to put newly learned skills into practice. One of the best ones we run is our night nav focused weekend which has teams traversing a 9 mile (14.5 Km) course across one of our National Forest Wilderness areas down in Missouri during the course of a night. We’ll generally set groups going in opposing directions and either have one team trying to make it past unnoticed or just let things play out as they may when the groups converge. Generally speaking, if one side gets totally busted by the other, it is understood that they will be buying breakfast at the Café the next morning. This probably sounds pretty simple to guys who have never covered any kind of distance tactically at night. Those that have know what all of this entails and recognize some of the challenges that are there for the taking: Patrol leader: Has to guide everyone through the planning process, must conduct PCIs to make sure everyone is ready, checks troops gear, boot fit, looks for shiny things, checks for rattles, steadies nerves and keeps everyone together on the march. Nav: Navigation is the biggest challenge, the area is laced with trails but it is not as simple as just following a footpath through the Jack Pines on a night were you may only have 22% moon coming up at 23:45. Fail to keep on top of where you are at any point and you’ll pay in spades. This event has a greater than 50% failure rate and almost all of that comes down to nav. If you are working nav, you have a rough night ahead if you’re not on your A game. Signals: All of our fieldcraft event have a signals aspect as much for safety as anything else. We’ll generally have set times when the units must call in to the White Cell (Admins) and we’ll keep score of who is where doing what from there. This is not as simple as is sounds once we start talking about longer distances in hilly, densely wooded terrain. You’ll soon see who was paying attention in the comms course and who was not. Soldier: For the new attendee just showing up as a soldier in an event like this there is simply the challenge of moving this sort of distance in your kit. Got problems with your boots? You’ll soon know for sure, pack not fitted right? You know about that too. Need to gain some experience picking your way though tough terrain with NODS, you can bet you’ll get some of that as well. If you fail, you’ll know what to do better next time, if you succeed you’ll have a lot more confidence when you step out on your next night patrol. These are fabulously fun events and we get attendees who drive absurd distances to attend them. Some of them come to the Fieldcraft weekends with no intentions of ever coming to East Wind, they get all they want out of the weekends instead. How many guys are we talking for one of these events to run well? 9, NINE, Neuf for our French speaking friends. Two four man teams and 1 white cell. Great fun, bigger is not always better. Does this need excessive gadgets to work? Nope. Do you need to come to the USA to do it? Nope. If you have 9 guys up there and some land (boy do you guys ever have land) then you can do exactly the same types of event. Trev said: “Numbers is often the root cause of the problem. It should not be the goal but the outcome.” I agree to a point. The issue you are talking about here has more to do with managing expectations and sticking to your guns than anything else. It is tempting as an event planner to try to get as many people on board as possible with your event since there is generally the perception that a successful event is a full event. As such, sometimes planners let things slide a bit or give guys a little bit of leeway and before you know it your event is in fact full but it’s full of guys who expect to get catered to and who are not really in it for what you had planned but are instead in it because it is “the big game”. That is bad medicine, poison to milsim… 9 years ago when I started planning East Wind I said I wanted an event that ran tactically24/7 for 9 days, I wanted strict gear requirements so that we could stay tactical regardless of weather, and I wanted the infrastructure in place to do it well. Players said: 9 days is too long, nobody will want to attend that long, lets just cut it back to a weekend! Players said: Gear requirements are too restrictive, we should just let people use their judgment and we can just go non-tactical if there is bad weather. Players said: Night games are hard, we should just run perhaps 2-3 hours out of each night so people can rest. Players said: All that infrastructure costs a lot of money to get and manage, lets just have players bring their own stuff, sleep in their cars or just go to motels at night. So if I had followed the advice I was getting, I would be running pretty much the same “weekend OP” everyone else has… I didn’t, I stuck to my guns and kept to the vision I had for my event. I would get emails from big teams who wanted to attend but wanted this one little rule bent so that they could use their team uniform and I would say no. I would lose those guys, (sometimes) but at the same time, I kept the original vision of what I wanted to do intact. I am CERTAIN, that every event host knows what I am talking about. You have an idea, it is a good one, it is going to absolutely kick A$$, but it ends up dying the death of a thousand paper cuts as one piece at a time it slowly gets frittered down to the same old same old by the end of the day. If you want Milsim, you need to determine what it is you want to do, what you REQUIRE of your attendees (you do not want “customers”) and then be absolutely clear and honest about what you are doing. If someone directly challenges your plan, says that they think it will not work, thinks you are a fool to try it, etc then you just smile and keep moving forward. Time will tell but it will only tell if you have the courage to give your own ideas a chance to stand on their own merit. If you want Milsim, you need to set requirements and then just as importantly you need to mean it. If you say that you require rain gear and big tall Sam with the shimmering smile shows up without rain gear then you tell big tall Sam with the shimmering smile to go pound sand, he does not have the gear you said was required. What’s big tall Sam going to do? Of course he’s going to run off to the internet where he is going to complain bitterly about what a huge horses a$$ you are, swear that he’s never driving 4 hours to go to one of your events again, and encourage everyone else to do the same. In other words, he’s going to become a tremendous marketing asset for you. He is going to cement in everyone’s head the fact that when you say that you require rain gear at the event you are not kidding. He’s going to tell the guys who are smart enough not to show up on a 10 degree day that has a 30% chance of rain without the right gear that when they show up ready to go, the event can and will still happen because the event planner can push forward through potential weather. He is telling the serious guys that you are serious… Don’t waiver on your vision, there are others out there who want what you want. Provide it and you will get “the numbers” even if the numbers only ends up being 30 guys instead of 300. Trev also said: “I really believe if Milsim games were posted that absolutely did not allow newbs and filtered the players severely, the games would be at the next level.” I agree with the concept of what you are saying but not exactly what you are saying. Again, this is about managing expectations. If newbs are showing up expecting what you are producing then in fact the issue is not newbs at all, the issue is leaders. Give me 90 newbs and 18 real leaders and we will have a milsim game that will knock your socks off. If you give a section of newbs a section leader who can take the time to show them what to do, guide them the right directions towards success, allow them to grow and learn over the course of the event, and dare I say, allow them to fail then they will have a successful section. You give those section leaders a platoon leader who can provide the guidance needed to keep the sections on task, communicates well enough to make sure that EVERY troop knows his part of the puzzle, then you will have a successful platoon. You give everyone Company level leadership that can manage rest/work cycles, keeps everyone fed, keeps up with the logistics and can provide the upper guidance needed to keep things flowing and your entire event will flow. Leaders are the issue, not newbs. Get more leaders and your newbs will do just fine. Put one guy in a tent with 14 squawking radios and a bad map expecting him to guide unskilled section leaders via platoon leaders who have broken radios and you have a recipe for failure. I have seen that play out time and again at “big ops” and I am sure most of the rest of you have as well. Worry about leaders, focus on leaders, don’t sweat newbs. Janus said: “I.e. large scale scenario = fun. Don't enforce HOW a team should organize. No one likes a micro manager.” There is a common misconception that Milsim means that you are not going to have leeway in what you are doing, that things are automatically scripted etc. This is not the case at all. Here’s why: “You men there are going to go up over the top of this trench and move at a walk across no mans land towards the enemy position when I blow on this shiny shiny whistle” “You must take that trench and eliminate the enemy machine guns located there” TOOOT!!!! There are many memorials here with the names of the brave men who died following those kinds of orders during WW1. I am CERTAIN, that there are even more up there in Canada since you guys were involved a great deal longer than we were down here. WWI saw a lot of long lasting changes in how wars were fought but the one thing that came out of that war that rings as clear today as it did back at Cambrai is the fact that leadership insulated from the men who are doing the fighting us a sure recipe for failure. In 1917 the French experimented with doing it differently, rather than the officers knowing the plan and just driving the men forward with bluster and resounding rhetoric they brought the soldiers into the planning process, they showed them the plan, the ENTIRE plan, they made absolutely certain that the soldiers understood above all else what the commanders intent of their portion of the mission was and MOST importantly, they gave enlisted soldiers the authority to make command decisions on the battlefield that were in direct conflict with “the plan” as long as they were doing so to achieve the intent of the plan. In other words, they began to look, however briefly at what would happen if they had an NCO corps. The French experiment did not resonate well with the French but damn did it ever have an impact on the Germans who felt the brunt of what this system could do. They learned from the brief French experiment and grew it from there into what nearly every professional army in the world today recognizes as how combat orders are done. “why are you telling stories about battles from 95 years ago when we are talking about milsim” Because when you are doing it right, all that structure at a milsim event that you think is there to bind you is actually there to support you. If we take the focus away from “trigger time” and instead focus on missions then the leadership can give you well worded orders that allow you to come up with a plan, a REALLY good plan, to go achieve your mission and succeed without just being told to go over the top when the whistle is blown. Milsim done right gives you so much MORE leeway and so much less micromanagement if you see the limitations you have as ties that support you rather than ties that bind you. Crom said: “have the teams evenly matched and I dont care if fat kid in multicam or paintballer guy bows out after 4 hours... as long as there’s still people fighting until the end...” Well said, this is again a matter of leadership above all else. If we get guys out of this mode of thinking that everything has to be a beach assault run run run situation 24/7 and instead focus on the bigger picture, then the pace can slow to a point where you can actually manage things a little bit better and keep your guys in the field. This is a HUGE problem at big games here in the states. Summer time events where the game kicks off at 10:00 am into a huge fight, by 3:00 pm, if you managed yourself well you can pretty much walk the field and take objectives at will since literally 60% of the players (including leadership) will be back at camp at best or down with heat exhaustion at worst. The last big event I was at (which was actually pretty well run even) was Broken Home by American Milsim. I was just in the area and stopped off to help the staff guys with some logistics then ended up using my truck for medevac duty when players started dropping out from not managing heat well. The end of that event looked a lot like the end of a lot of bigger events in that there was a fraction of the guys who started out on the field. This is always a problem but the solution comes down to leadership as much as anything else. We see some fluctuations from things like people needing to leave early from work and we do see some people drop out from injury or illness at East Wind but in general we end the event with about the same amount of guys on the field that we started with. Is it because we are all uber soldiers who eat nothing but wheatgrass smoothies while doing pushups wearing barbed wire jockstraps? Nope. It’s troop management. Manage troops well and you’ll have a force at the end of the day. Focus on “trigger time” and just keep cycling guys again and again at the same Yosemite Sam charge attack at the same place then you’ll end up falling behind on troop management and onesy twosey, they’ll filter back to the cars… Brian said: “It requires a suspension of reality, and a willingness to step through to an alternate reality where 6mm plastic bbs can kill you.” Another way to look at that is personal investment in the situation. If you really believe that you are there for the experience rather than the to “win” and you have time and energy put into what you are out to achieve then you REALLY do not want to get hit with that BB regardless. Sheesh…. 5 pages…. I need to lighten the hell up… |
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Thanks for this.. that is all really really good stuff. |
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I'd buy it. I'm finding that the older I get the more this appeals to me. Unfortunately medical issues keep me from attending alot of extended duration games.:( When I first started I loved the meat grinder games. Run in shoot, get hit, run out, respawn, repeat. Now not so much. I like using my head more than my feet. I'm starting to find more enjoyment in planning various skrims and OPs, than playing in alot of games. And when I play in games, I am very selective in which ones I go to, since I know my limitations. I'm looking forward to more discussion! http://www.airsoftcanada.com/images/...cornsmiley.gif |
Milsim isn't an abandoned town or a rule set or a shiny humvee or apc. It's in you and me! It's the spirit of believing that you can die from bb's, it's the feeling you get when your CO gives you a couple hours sleep before going back on patrol. It's that feeling of pride you feel as you watch those around you wuss out and head for the carpark, that's Milsim and it is in all of us :)
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@ Brian, Firestorm, and Grudge I appreciate the comments. I am not planning a book, just have enough time to actually sit at the desk and write a bit right now. It’s that sort of quiet around here at work that you only get when you are ticking away the days till your job is over.
http://findreallove.files.wordpress....pg?w=300&h=244 Ahh… So quiet in the engine room now… Grudge said: “I'm finding that the older I get the more this appeals to me. Unfortunately medical issues keep me from attending a lot of extended duration games.” There are plenty of us who are not the spring chickens we used to be, that does not preclude being able to do milsim games, it just means that some effort has to be placed to find the just right spot to fit in. As I mentioned, the biggest obstacle anyone who is trying to run a good milsim style event has to overcome is leadership. If you don’t have what it takes to grind it out in the trenches figure out where you can go to find the challenge without having to use up all your real life “hit points”. A well run milsim needs effective guys on the sidelines keeping things moving. Last spring at East Wind for instance there were three of us in HQ who were still recovering from broken legs. If you learn useful skills, there is always a place for you helping out, providing guidance, working with guys on mission planning, dealing with signals or working with the command staff to help put together the big picture so things can run successfully. The more depth you add to a milsim, the more back line guys you end up needing to make it happen. Event have vehicles? They need drivers? Have supplies that need to be dealt with? That means an S4 to manage them. Have serious commo? That means you need a signals guy. Have a dedicated medevac vehicle that means you need a medic to run it. The list goes on. Don’t give up your hobbies just because of health, just morph it into what you can do and keep doing that the absolutely best that you can. Pusnagi said: “that's Milsim and it is in all of us” Pretty much but I will specify that what really matters is if we are being honest with ourselves about what exactly we want from an event and bring the right frame of mind with us in our kit bag. Basically, it’s there if we want it to be there otherwise we just end up with everyone whining. |
The definition on MILSIM has never been, and will never be accurately defined.
Personnally, MILSIM has always been how much effort, dedication and devotion a player / team puts into the game to fully live the immersion. And then of course, you have the fluffy-candied things that comes with it; Props, Chain Of Command, Vehicles, Strict gear rules, Mission Complexity, ect. This MILSIM debate was there when I first joined airsoft in 2003, and it's still being debated 10 years later ... I've turned that page and carried on with my beliefs. |
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now you gone and done it... cracked open ASC debate number 21-b What is Milsim.. |
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To be honest you don't want to simulate the military.
Ask anyone who's in. |
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It's not really what the military is like unless you're getting the players to DAG every time they respawn.
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I think a few major points have been missed here.
Airsoft is a game. It is not anything like military service. Those wanting a true military experience should sign up. End of story. The point of a game is to have fun. This means accommodating people of widely different experience and skill levels. That fat kid in the multicam cap is the future of the sport. New players must be encouraged and brought into the sport instead of being alienated and made to feel inadequate simply because they don't meet some elitist standard of conduct. Without new blood, this sport will die. Heck, the fact that the fat kid in the multicam cap has been singled out and become the subject of scorn and ridicule is itself an indication of a very broken attitude. Every member of this forum was once that fat kid in the multicam cap; we all had to start at the beginning. I should mention that I have noted more than a few so called 'elite' players who conduct themselves in extremely unsportsmanlike ways. Refusing to call hits from that fat kid in the multicam cap because one has been airsofting for N years and feels themselves to be special is beyond the pale. Overly aggressive behavior towards new players will only ensure that the 'elite' players become a small, lonely and likely bitter group that nobody else wants to associate with. If that's your goal, fill your boots. When hosting a large game/milsim/op/whatever, it is truly a challenge to ensure that one provides a safe and rewarding experience for all participants, regardless of skill level. The goal of a game organizer should be to ensure that all players are challenged but yet have an opportunity to have fun and feel as though they have received good entertainment value for their money. After all, people participate in this money hemorrhaging sport because they want too, and the second it ceases being enjoyable they will move on. The best way to ensure that people attend an event is to listen to what they want and then to work hard to strike a balance between the requirement of the elite and the new players and everyone in between. It is absolutely critical that one parks their ego and strives to keep listening, and to realize that laurels are something to be built on, not rest on. If one wishes to host a 'true milsim' event with very restrictive rules and player skill level limitations then feel free to do so. However, don't complain about your sparsely attended milsim while denigrating the event which drew 300+ people that you felt did not live up to your standards. That 300+ person event had a lot of turnout because people had fun and they will support such events in the future because they wish to continue having fun. |
I see your point, but things are not so A and B. The scale in which you measure a player is not from elitist to fat kid and back. There are several different tangents to style of play, and several different dynamics you could use to rate a player. If Brian wishes to host a World War II event, and I wish to hold a modern military style event, then that is simply what they are. An elitist attitude would be looking down at said event because it isn't your style, but it is in no way elitist to expect all attendees to show up appropriately. Nobody is responsible for catering to all demographics, because that would be impossible, and foolish. General demographic games that are simply shoot and scoot, can be very fun, but I have attended 300 player plus games that were near to a complete shit storm. Amount of players can make a great dynamic to a game, but can just as easily ruin it.
Discluding someone from an event is elitist, unless there is a valid reason i.e. age, attitude, safety, etc. The fat kid is allowed to attend a WWII event, as long as he is there prepared for such an event. I take players on to my team with low natural skill, knowing full well that they will get better with time given the opportunity. However, this brings up a very good point; if a group of players is set up well will skill, team work, equipment, etc, then some kid with a clearsoft gun and little experience will not likely have fun with them, and on the opposite, the other group has no challenge, so they'll be disappointed. You "can" field them all together, but it may end in disaster. Several types of game styles simply do not mix on any level whatsoever, and there is nothing anyone can do about that. Elitist attitude is simply thinking that you're superior in some way, and looking down at others, it is not being superior, and using your gifts. If that was not the case, every player would have to run the exact same gear with the exact same capabilities, and anyone who showed above average skill would have an arm tied behind their backs, while below average would be given cocaine to compensate. Luckily, our species figured out how stupid that is, and now it doesn't apply to anything, especially something like airsoft. Whining because something doesn't cater to you, means you are a part of a small, selfish demographic of people that are too lazy to start something yourself, or to see what the local scene is into, and finding a way to fit in. If you ran a team, and everyone on it put their heart and soul into their gear, their skill, and thei team work, and actively looked for challenging events that was more inline with their style, that doesn't make them elitist. But when someone joins up, and suggests you run around in pink leotards with rubber swords, you wouldn't consider it. You'd probably tell them to head on down the road to find something more their speed. That is the right thing to do, not elitist, not even a little. Airsoft can be whatever you want it to be, and that's just fine, but don't bring expectations into someone else's house, and the cry when you don't get your way. So many people who dump their all their energy, money, and skill into their gear, or their events get called elitist for no reason. Name on sport or game where there is not a minimum safety and sporting gear to play. Guess what happens if you want to play hockey, but you can't afford skates or a helmet? I'll bet you can figure out the answer without me telling you, but it involves you not playing hockey. Luckily, that's where field hockey, or ball hockey comes into play. Once those different sports are established however, don't expect them to mix on the same field; they are just too different. If you do attend an "open" event, and some kid with a POS Walmart gun manages to shoot you in all your fancy gear, and you don't call it, then you are an unsportsmanlike, elitist, turd. |
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I always remind myself in every game that airsoft survivability is nothing like the real world and tactics used in airsoft do not necessarily translate to real world "milsim". Sometimes it is the suspension of belief that can lead to the best entertainment and experience, go with the flow of the game as it is designed. Airsoft "milsim" is the same as the rest of life, you get out of it what you invest in it. |
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Back to the regularly scheduled Milsim program |
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Some more good talk on this subject!
Danhay said: “Heck, the fact that the fat kid in the multicam cap has been singled out and become the subject of scorn and ridicule is itself an indication of a very broken attitude. Every member of this forum was once that fat kid in the multicam cap; we all had to start at the beginning.” There is always an assumption by people who do not attend “serious” milsim events that we somehow look down upon new players or feel that we are inherently better than them. That is not the case. In fact, new players probably blend in better and are generally more accepted at serious milsim events than at normal events. The difference is that the Milsim guys are doing something very specific and the fat kid in the Multicam booney cap has to be the fat kid in the Mk6 kevlar helmet instead. A decent percentage of attendees at East Wind are literally first time airsofters. Most are coming for exactly what East Wind is putting on and are getting into airsoft just because it is the system we use some are guys who are wanting to get into airsoft and don’t have a reasonable community in their own area so decide to travel, some are coming for the opportunity to learn. As far as the future of the sport goes, the issue with airsoft in general is not getting new people into the sport it is staving the rate at which we bleed experienced players back out. We get thousands of new players every year into our sport and just as fast, we lose thousands out the other end due to boredom, the fact that they plateau with their skill sets or just the fact that a regular shootem up game only has so many challenges. The Milsim style of play offers additional depth to the experience which helps give an outlet to players who would likely otherwise stop playing. Probably 50% of the attendees at East Wind no longer attend regular games, they have either just decided that they do not get that much out of them or like me, they are so tied up constantly doing East Wind related projects and such that they just do not have time for regular games. If you give experienced players and outlet as well then you’ll keep them around. You need these guys since the fat kid in the Multicam booney cap may be great but he’s probably not taking the time to run games, nor is he experienced enough to be a moderator on a web forum for you. Then Danhay said: I should mention that I have noted more than a few so called 'elite' players who conduct themselves in extremely unsportsmanlike ways. Great news for the Milsim guys: None of those dudes generally show up to serious milsim events. I coined the term “Samurai Pastry Chef” airsofters to describe what you are talking about. Those guys live to be the biggest fish in a small pond and they are not usually looking for a deeper experience because it might challenge them and (gasp!) point out a way in which they are inadequate. You just do not see that demographic at serious milsim events. Besides, since serious milsim never makes any money serious hosts do not bat an eye at kicking out players who are jerks. Danhay also said: “However, don't complain about your sparsely attended milsim while denigrating the event which drew 300+ people that you felt did not live up to your standards.” I don’t. My event has exactly as many attendees as I want. I am sure most of the other “serious” milsim guys are in the same boat. I am also not denigrating the event which drew 300+ people, I am instead usually helping on the admin end of those events and helping to organize the staff and provide vehicle support. I also recognize that the 300+ player event that is organized to provide the maximum fun to the “average” player is not the least bit interesting to me so I do not attend to play since I would get little out of it other than whizzing away a ton of bbs or getting pissed off by attendees not calling hits. Danke said: “To be honest you don't want to simulate the military.” Yep. It’s the same thing down here in the states… We always say we are trying to simulate the interesting parts not the dumb stuff. There is always a struggle with this and there is certainly a tendency for a host to chalk up their own poor performance to “that’s what the military is like” but in all reality, it’s much better if we focus on doing it well instead. A basic example: Scrambled eggs placed into an aluminum Mermite can turn green and then they promptly get cold and icky. I happen to like decent scrambled eggs and have no particular affinity for green things that are not vegetables so our cooks use stainless steel instead and we have cambro cans that keep the food hot longer. We are not milsim enough to eat crappy food just for the fun of it… Likewise, we’ll call formation usually on day 1 and day 2 mostly just to address everyone at once so we can cover the plan for the day etc but it’s not just for the fun of it, it’s just an easy way to have accountability and make sure Billy is not still in the porta-john. Ricochet said: “Whining because something doesn't cater to you, means you are a part of a small, selfish demographic of people that are too lazy to start something yourself, or to see what the local scene is into, and finding a way to fit in.” Oh my god yes do I totally agree with this. When I stopped doing local events to focus on East Wind I got no end to grief about this from everyone else who seemed to take it for granted that it is the job of event hosts to run games for the good of the greater collective. Nah, it is the job of an event host to put on the best damn game that they can and they will do that best when the gloves come off and they are able to produce EXACTLY the event that they want. It happens in my case that I really prefer an equipment oriented milsim event. To that end, I spend every evening and every weekend almost without exception readying gear, repairing things, planning, writing, training and getting all the pieces of the puzzle in place for exactly the event I want to run. If someone else is really into Pirates and wants to put the same amount of effort into putting together a pirate themed event that using home built sailboats on Lake Winnipeg then by God, they ought to do just that. If everyone makes exactly what they want then we’ll have the diversity to give us all a lot more neat and fun options. If we instead just listen to the people who whine endlessly and put wet blankets over every new idea then our sport will never grow past the same old same old events. Pretty much the fist litmus test for every new idea that gets bounced my way is “what are YOU willing to do to accomplish the goal”. People who come along with a bright idea for someone else to do are rarely worth listening to. Nobody needs unfunded mandates… Congrats to both MadDog and Ricochet! You guys are really building the future, one bottle at a time. |
Having been to both Eastwind and the Guernsey OP that was the original post of this thread, I thought I'd join up and chime in.
I've spent waaaay too much time figuring out what milsim is, to the point that I now look upon the term as a profanity. Eastwind was my very first OP (and RUINED the rest of AS for me, thankyouverymuch Mr Swayze) I've gone to big OPs, I've gone to little OPs, I've been across the states looking for good games (and I'm looking for something cool to go to in Canada!). What "I" have managed to boil it down to is players as participants rather than customers. Your results may vary. I was at Guernsey. I, personally had a fantastic time. And I did it without firing a shot. We decided we could be bored and playing another AS game, or we could get out there and make our own fun, which we did. I've played at the gigantic monster OPs here in the states. They bore the hell out of me. I don't need a cast of thousands for my fun. I need 100 hand-picked, motivated, dedicated professionals. I get that at Eastwind. I get that at RECONDO. I stole the same idea when we created OP Grand Redemption. 106 participants, personally invited (including three Canadians). SUPERB levels of sportsmanship and professionalism! On another issue, is the ice cream sandwich with the MC boonie cap really the future of the sport? He's not the future of MY sport. Milsimers aren't elitist as much as we are separate. We don't want to play funsoft, they don't want to play milsim. I'm fine with that. I think it's a greater disservice to the sport to try to make everything everything to everyone. Discrimination can be a good thing. Sounds like some new topics for Airsoft Table Talk ;) |
Ya, I pretty much agree with all of what Abacus said...
Here's another way to look at it. I have a normal* cat: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/9...46424546_c.jpg *Except for the part where he thinks he can hide under the corner of the rug. Other people have fancy cats: http://www.jonasmaxwell.com/i/00028/...-0426x0480.jpg Do I begrudge the fancy cat crowd for their fancy cats? No. I am not into that. What they are doing is not any of my concern. Is their cat the future of cats? What about my cat? Does it matter? Now back to airsoft. I do my style of Milsim. I do not care AT ALL what goes on at big ops and John Lu style bbfest games. I don't look down on them, I do not scorn them, I just don't care. If that was all there was to airsoft, I would be doing something else. 99% of players are not into my style if Milsim. They do not care what we are doing other than the ones who are unrepentant whiners who think that all game hosts should be required to make all games cater to the "customer demand" rather than what the game host wants but just like all the rest of the whiners in the world, nobody really cares what they think anyhow. Who's the future of airsoft? Funsoft? Milsim? Zombie games? Paintball style tournaments? How about none of the above. How about ALL of the above. Fact is that diversity of opportunity is the future of the sport. Recognize that, and the entire sport moves forward. If game hosts put their image in focus so that not every event is focused towards every player than it's easier for guys to know which event suits their needs and wants the best. I am not going to go to a tournament style game played on a paintball Xball field. I am 100% certain that none of those guys are going to accidentally end up at East Wind expecting to play tournament paintball style gaming because in both cases, we are very clear about what we are doing. The friction is not generally at either end of the spectrum, it usually lays somewhere in the middle. |
This has been the best discussion on this topic ever had on ASC.. full stop.
and I thank everyone who has contributed, This should be stickied.. so as to avoid the inevitable rehash that is certain to occur if this thread gets submerged. |
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Here Here! Asawayze, you have some very straight forward points, I like that. However, Canada has some reverse issues from the US. There are more people in New York City, than our entire country combined, yet we have a larger country by land mass. And although we have some great centers for airsoft, not everyone is in or near one, and out potential player base is quite a bit smaller, no matter how high it may be per capita. In my case, I got my start in a smaller town of 15,000 or less population. We had at one time, three airsoft teams, which is pretty good considering, and all three teams were/are modern military style. We focused on milsim, and organized sport style of play with tactics and higher end gear. We for the most part offered up the opportunity for almost anyone to come and try out if they were interested, but many wanted something different. We had players who wanted to play strictly a speedball style without all the heavy gear, others were into WWII style, etc, but we didn't cater directly to them. Essentially, if you wanted to play on or with our team, on out field, you did it our way; which I believe is reasonable. We would even give, lend, rent, or help guys buy gear they needed to play, and as long as you had a proper airsoft gun, BDUs, and safety gear, you could play on our field. Here's the issue; some players would bitch that we didn't play any days their way, or allow their style on our field. Others tried to make is change, and on, and on, and on. There was no outlet within driving distance for many of these players that had specialty tastes, but we were building a team, and not providing a weekend warrior place to game for all. I don't feel bad about that, but I didn't like being bitched at, or being called an elitist for doing our own thing, with our own time and money, on our own property. Even going to certain larger events it mostly catered to one style of play for game dynamics, and if someone threw a specialty game, depending on the type, they'd have no little to no attendees. So most players are forced to attend the milsim, or modern military style if events, because that's all they had available. I was at one event with maybe 100 or more combatants, and one guy, "one", showed up with a giant rubber broadsword. So yeah, many people looked at him oddly, and he was told by admins that he can't run his sword. Now I'm sorry that he has no one his speed, but don't come to our event, and then act surprised when people look at you funny. As I understand it in many States, there are more people available for the oddball or specialty stuff due to population. Also, not three, four, ten hour drives to find a game that suits you. |
Certainly, the number of players in the community will dictate the size of games.
There have been some good sized games that went off well around here, upwards of 150 to 200 players. When you choose to specialize then you have to realize that you cut out the majority of players, and you have to adjust your expectations with respect to attendance. But if you stick to your plans and goals, the right players will come out and the ones you don't want will stay away. In Ontario in particular there are so many fields and games going on that there is usually every weekend a game catering to each particular proclivity. Sometimes games overlap.. and nibble at the player base reducing attendance at both games, but overall Game hosts are pretty careful not to double book out of courtesy for one another. It's all working pretty well. |
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I agree, the contributions to this thread are plenty - mods are keeping the trolls at bay. Carry on gents, this is a great read! |
I posted some notes about my game design process some months ago.. here is a link.. for your interest.
http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=152545 |
I think it would also be worth debunking some of the myths of "what isn't" milsim.
Going all queer eye and saying fat people or boonie hats are not allowed is probably a bit miss-guided. Same for re-supply or other administrative details. Guys in the military go back to the vehicle for more ammo all the time. If you want a limited ammo game then write it up so there's a first of all a good reason behind that and make sure the game scenario will lead players to that outcome. Reasonable uniform rules are fine; if you have one team on deck as Navy SEALs doing a greenside op then hoodies and white runners won't fly. Same goes if you have insurgents; having them swathed head to toe in Multicam "because it's all I've got" isn't acceptable. Sending someone off for wearing Flyee instead of Paraclete though is once again a bit too queer eye. When one team bends or brakes the game rules or "rules of engagement" that's not milsim either. As soon as that happens it's one big skirmish. When the game admin decides to intervene and tweak the rules on the fly because the game has tilted the wrong way they better have a plan and a reasonable way to do so. Otherwise it's just bullshit. It is one thing to be in the military and to get paid to enjoy belt fed cock. It is not desirable to go out and pay your own money and get belt fed cock in exchange. |
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I have attended a number of Battlefield games hosted by JOC in Calgary, and enjoyed them all. One of the best though was only about 60-70 players instead of the usual 100-150. Having people with good attitudes is everything really, not always how many you have. When an endurance game is held, such as a 24 hour, other issues arise. If half the team leaves the play area to go sleep in their cars, it severely unbalances the game, same as when a chunk of players leave early. A lot of work goes into these events, and changing everything on the fly to compensate is a pain. Many hardcore game organizers have resorted to either inviting teams/players that they know will tough it out, and help the game keep rolling, and others say straight out not to bother attending unless your prepared for a long game. This also gets people upset, but not understandably. Why should they want you there if your just coming to do things your way, and not to be a part of the big picture? Many game organizers are players. It's not about the money, they want to hold a specific type of event, and throw their blood, sweat, and tears, into it, but can only pull it of if everyone chips in and comes prepared. But then they get called elitist. In my personal opinion, if say Brian wishes to hold a WWII style event, for aficionados, or anyone who is interested in checking one out, and you show up dressed like Master Chief or Something completely non period, your a jerk. Time and effort should be rewarded with teamwork, understanding, and fun, not with some goof showing up and doing things his way, leaving early, and then calling you names because you won't invite his ass back. |
Abolutely. Period gear/weapons for a WW II game is not negotiable.
Could you get away with arid CADPAT instead of AOR1 at a modern game? Probably without a second glance. Can you rock out a Multicam plate carrier and M4 with a box mag amongst a group equipped with Grease Guns and M-1s? Nope, not ever. |
Yeah, modern is usually anything that's still in circulation in the west. Pretty much woodland and on. If you're talking about mixing similar digitized patterns, that's pretty common due to gear availability. If you were doing a team thing based on the Seals (AOR1), or the Marines (marpat desert), then you'd likely not get away with aridpat, depending on your groups strict or easy going nature.
Every host has to be responsible for their decisions as well. If you hosted a game that was strictly AOR1 versus AOR2, you'd likely have a sparse showing. Slightly more common nowadays is approved camo lists. Things like Multicam, AOR2, marpat desert, A-Tacs AU, multiterrain, etc, versus M81 woodland, marpat, DPM, etc. But then you have guys wearing UCP, or black complaining. Realistically it's all what you want for game dynamics. I've considered buying a base set of camo just to attend a specific game, especially if the game is outstanding. So far though, multicam is universally accepted. What really frustrates me is how gear and guns keep getting exponentially cheaper, and yet people still bitch about the price. I guess that'll never change. Sigh* |
Those complaints will never change. I've seen players in Hong Kong complaining about the price on the street when it's a tenth of what we pay here.
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One specific game this year was a Wolverines themed game (civilian militia vs soviet military) Rules were dress the part, no geared out civies in plate carriers, helmets or camo, and soviets were to wear green camo. Fairly simple instructions you'd think. Nope. One guy posted up saying all he had was UCP so that was good enough, while others were going to run helmets and plate carriers on the civilian team. (helmets so they could get sweet footage of them walking through thick scrub brush, and plate carriers because they felt they could do what they want) I'm all for invite only and minimum kit list games for reasons like this. There are plenty of bb fest games for the COD playing mag ticklers, more serious players shouldn't have to dumb down their games to always cater to those kind of players. |
A slide we used to get around the matchy patterns was we made it that any squad or team had to have matching uniform, thereby making the uniform choices as part of the IFF process. Naturally it wasn't perfect as there of course wound up being more than one squad in Multicam (the pattern of choice here), but it did do a good job of showing to the player WHY a uniform standard was tactically useful.
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So it sounds like milsim lives half in the heart of the players and half in the brain of the organizer.
The way to recognize the signs of it is to detect some level of commitment for player preparation prior to the day beyond showing up with exact change. |
Ricochet said:
"As I understand it in many States, there are more people available for the oddball or specialty stuff due to population. Also, not three, four, ten hour drives to find a game that suits you." And Brian said: "When you choose to specialize then you have to realize that you cut out the majority of players, and you have to adjust your expectations with respect to attendance. " I understand exactly where Rickchet is coming from on that. It sounds like you actually had a pretty good thing going in your area for the volume of folks involved all in all. It's not quite as easy here in the states as it may look. For me, I live in Kansas City. There is effectively no milsim play here at all so if I want a Milsim game I need to drive at best 12 hours to Colorado, 15 or so to get up to Wyoming or at worst 18-24 hours to get up to Recondo. I can get funsoft most any weekend, decent CQB at a number of places withing 2-4 hours but not really any serious (non-trigger time oriented) Milsim gaming. If I want to do more mainstream "Milsim" gaming, then I get a game or two a year within about 4 hours of here. In short, the more focused you end up getting, the more limiting you are for the events you are looking at. I think we all know that... So how on Earth is East Wind successful down here? If I am in somewhat of an airsoft black hole, how do I get a successful Milsim event together? Well, that's just the thing, if you do not pander to the middle at all and you put together something that is as pure as you can stand then you actually have something that stands out from the crowd. When you have that, people will take the time to travel. Nearly a quarter of the NATO contingent last year were international travelers (Canadians and Brits) and many of our other attendees were traveling from the far extremes of the US like Southern California or the Eastern seaboard. If I was much more lenient on requirements, much more lax on what we were going to do, I might gain some local guys but then what I was going would not be that different than what the guys who are traveling can find locally so I would be doing so at the expense of guys who are willing to travel and I would probably have the same or slightly LOWER numbers. I really do think that producing very focused events is where it is at even when you are in a much less urbanized area. Danke said:" Going all queer eye and saying fat people or boonie hats are not allowed is probably a bit miss-guided. Same for re-supply or other administrative details. Guys in the military go back to the vehicle for more ammo all the time." Nobody said fat people aren't allowed. Hell I am 43 years old now and it's been nearly 20 years since I ran my last marathon. I assure you I am plenty fat. Many of us are that way. Boonie caps are obviously an event specific thing. For US troops they were not an "issue" item so when units got them they were either an individual purchase or a unit purchase. As such, I do not REQUIRE booney caps but certainly don't mind if guys wear period appropriate ones. http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3800/9...445de03471.jpg Childers in his period appropriate booney wearing the uniform he wore during the East Wind time frame. Limited ammo and resupply really is the answer. When done correctly, the point is not so much to limit the amount of shooting a unit does but to build in the need for the battle to actually be managed. When you have the event set up such that a defeated enemy cannot just run back, tag a tree turn around and hit you 20 seconds later with another Yosemite Sam charge then it's a little easier to manage things a bit. For us, that usually means consolidating after the contact, trading ammo back and forth if needed, a quick LACE report called in on the section/squads radio, a medevac call if required, then back at the HQ the leadership determines if a resupply run is needed or is practical. That's a snap for us, since we have period vehicles and a big enough AO to make use of them, other planners have differing challenges administratively and/or may have different scenarios in mind than well supplied first world armies in Europe. I think that in most cases, when event hosts are trying to keep players away from their cars it usually has a LOT more to do with keeping the game flowing and keeping everyone immersed in what's going on rather than having 50% of the event vanish to go to McDonalds at lunch time or sitting around in lawn chairs having the Henny Penny social hour while others are having to do double duty to keep the event running. Danke also said: "When the game admin decides to intervene and tweak the rules on the fly because the game has tilted the wrong way they better have a plan and a reasonable way to do so. Otherwise it's just bullshit." I could not agree more. In my opinion the heart of this is the feeling that it is bad for one side to absolutely pound the piss out of the other. I personally prefer to pretty much let things come as they may. If I am getting face stomped than that means that I am being challenged (which is good) and in my opinion, I would much prefer to level the playing field myself than have it leveled for me by some admin act of god. The best way to level the playing field is to get the side that is losing to step up to the challenge rather than put annoying obstacles in the way of the side that is doing well. Ricochet said: "A lot of work goes into these events, and changing everything on the fly to compensate is a pain. Many hardcore game organizers have resorted to either inviting teams/players that they know will tough it out, and help the game keep rolling, and others say straight out not to bother attending unless your prepared for a long game. This also gets people upset, but not understandably. Why should they want you there if your just coming to do things your way, and not to be a part of the big picture? Many game organizers are players. It's not about the money, they want to hold a specific type of event, and throw their blood, sweat, and tears, into it, but can only pull it of if everyone chips in and comes prepared. But then they get called elitist." Well said. I will add one thought about longer "endurance" games that I feel is a shortcoming I see many game hosts falling into. As usual, there is a tendency to feel that players need plenty of trigger time to validate their existence so the pace of operations remains pretty high. As such, before too long guys start to wear out, tempers flare, guys head to the cars, unit cohesion dissolves. Next thing you know the 5% of players who paced themselves are out walking all over the AO unopposed. As a host, you need STRONG leadership that has the sense to cycle units in and out for rest and spends a great deal of time working on the logistical aspects of keeping guys in the field. If you just expect guys to show up able to run 24+ hours with no plan or upper end support you are just asking for it. Riccochet said: "What really frustrates me is how gear and guns keep getting exponentially cheaper, and yet people still bitch about the price. I guess that'll never change. Sigh*" I don't think it's a price issue for most of the guys who are bitching, it's mostly because it will require effort. Hell, you should see the things people whine about on the East Wind gear lists. "What, you're pissed about the USGI angle head flashlight requirement? I have some of those for sale in the classified section for $3 each!" One of the things I have noticed in many years of doing East Wind is that the guys who are pissing and bitching about gear requirements are not looking for a solution, they are looking for a reason to justify not coming. Jump through hoops and fix one problem then they will just invent another one. Easiest answer on any of this is to be polite, offer solutions and if they are not that interested, just don't spend that much time worrying about it. J-man19 said: "This annoys me to no end, along with people posting weeks before a milsim or themed game saying they don't have a required camo so they'll just show up wearing UCP because that's all they have." See this has an easy solution. I do not care how far you come, how exciting you are, how big your belt buckle is, you show up to East Wind in the wrong stuff you are not getting in. I do not kid about this in the least and have sent people packing (generally they just drive off to a surplus store and buy the required gear locally). If you set the standard, then have the balls to enforce the standard you'll put an end to that really damn fast. Again, those guys will bitch up a storm and fill the internet full of hate towards your event for giving them the boot and again, that is the best advertising you could possibly ask for since you'll not have to explain again that you are not kidding on gear requirements. :) Danke said: "The way to recognize the signs of it is to detect some level of commitment for player preparation prior to the day beyond showing up with exact change." Bingo. That is what we are all looking for. When the players pull their part of the load then your successes will number like grains of sand. Good milsim requires good players. |
It's some comfort I suppose to see that game organizers all over have the same issues.
When you start airsoft you generally have no expectation from a game so your expectations are easily met. When you've been playing for a while and the excitement of shooting lots wears off, finding more serious milsim games to keep you interested becomes more difficult. Or rather, finding players who want to play more serious milsim games (before they quit out of boredom) becomes more difficult. Even the milsim games that we run, we end up watering them down a bit so that they are more accessible to our player base. We'd love to make them more strict, but then we'd be out there with 20 guys. Probably not such a bad thing. ;P It seems to be a bit like the airsoft holy grail...a quest to find a real milsim game. I suppose we'll have to make the trek to East Wind *cough* Mecca *cough* Great discussion, BTW |
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I might even be able to be convinced to do a Russian load out so Gish can finally play in his gear at a big game. |
Kimbo and his camp put on some good events actually. Usually a solid a turnout matched with good game dynamics. I think something many games suffer from is recycled play areas, though it can be challenging to find new and exciting venues.
A special shout out goes to the guys who were mix and match gear to events, even something as simple as green versus tan. A lot of people say that perh*ps it was all they can afford, or it was all their friends could lend them. To be honest, I sympathize with this, but when I come into a room and see a multicam arm, and then get shot by the guy because I hesitated, and now I see he's wearing OD pants with a UCP rig, I feel like going all Hulk smash. I actually witnessed this happen to an admin at Mason Relic, as the guy was wearing mix and match, he was pretty upset. Also, if the game is green versus tan, and all your buddies are wearing A-Tacs FG, but all you had is aridpat; guess what? You're on the other team numbnuts. You always see those guys who try to silently shuffle over by their friends, but are wearing opposing colors. Back on the milsim note. There are always differing trains if thought, that live within the same world; things such as ammo/magazine limits, camo restrictions, mandatory safety gear, etc. Any player worth his salt will willingly adapt to attend an event they are interested in. For example, we run Systemas for the most part, and standard Systema magazines, which are the best in my opinion, hold about 120 rounds. We only load out magazines halfway as a rule of thumb, so approximately 60-70 rounds. These magazines, no matter how you slice it are considered mid-caps. When an event only allows blank number of mid-caps, that's all we carry, and we still only half load them. We don't carry extra because we use them as low-caps, and we do not ask for a reprieve. Rules are rules, get over it. One game I attended was a single high-cap allowance only. One gentleman was carrying two, and claiming he only used the second one to load his primary magazine, basically a BB holder. Even if that is true, and he is being honest, he still broke the rules. Same with comms. If the rules state not to jam or scan enemy frequencies, them just plain old don't do it. |
For our grouping ANURANS, the MILSIM is a military exercise (can be tactical, combat, or basic training) performed with or without the level of demand that occurs in the military, in a longer or shorter, but done by people who do not necessarily have education or military training and using sports as a tool playful electric weapons. This exercise unlike an airsoft game has much more preparation actions for achieving its goals. In participants MILSIM not seek a recreational activity, what motivates them is more personal and group achievement of objectives.
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That is very well said.
I do not think that it is at all the norm in regular Milsim play styles but one of the aspects of how we run East Wind that really seems to stick well is mission planning and prep. We have the luxury of time that most events do not and in addition to that, we have enough (barely) staff to actually develop an intel picture of what is going on so that players are able to work with real rather than scenario imagined intel when working out mission plans. This means a good hour or so sitting around the table working out the plan, perhaps another hour getting kitted up just right, perhaps some time running some rehearsals etc before you step off for "action". On the outside looking in, that seems entirely tedious. When you are in the midst of it though, it is very engrossing and gives you a great deal of personal ownership of the mission and a good dose of confidence when you walk out past the wire. Think of it this way. Have any of you ever done a mission and when you were done thought "if only we had thought to do X instead!" Or rather have any of you ever NOT thought that? Sitting there, gaming it out before hand, working out the details, the route, actions on the objective, etc makes things just roll once you hit the field. I am not sure how easy this is to integrate into more mainstream Milsim but it is something that works well at East Wind, it might be worth some thought. http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8166/7...5c64b4e4_z.jpg Company OPORD going out at East Wind 5, squad/section leaders get their part then start working out their part of the puzzle. http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8389/8...f8a0fdc3_z.jpg Individual sections work out their mission plans. |
This is something that I call "mission based" organization. I have been integrating this into milsims I host , both small and large.
The next step is eliminating "respawn" so that for each mission it is a 1 life event. |
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@Brian, I would think that eliminating respawn would be a hard sell on a shorter term event. We have a 2 hour dead time back at camp which is not a big deal at all on a longer game (in fact most of us are GLAD to have the enforced break) but I'd think that would be tough to do normally.
To me, the biggest issue is not having the same guys returning to the same fight. There is a tendency to use attrition (More specifically to abuse Noobs as cannon fodder rather than work with them) to achieve goals instead of fighting right and if you can manage the structure such that the opposing sides do not have an unlimited supply of bodies to pile up then you basically achieve that goal. |
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With Milsim games I'd like to see a much longer "you're dead" timing...but we've done some 1-life type scenarios and they're quite fun. Really depends on the guys and how much space you've got to work with.
In 1-life type scenarios with enough space to negotiate a precise mission objective is really fun if guys keep their heads. The scenario may span many hours or may finish up really quickly...it just depends on how it plays out. For the ones I've seen like that...even the "losers" are ok with it because really things could have gone either way. TBH...in games with medics and quick respawns I'd admit to throwing caution to the wind with my "life" since the game dynamics turn more to who can "resupply" most efficiently to overwhelm the other side. Reminds me more of 1918'ish tactics of throwing guys into a meatgrinder and wearing down the other side until they tire out. Sure there's still consequences to getting shot...but they're either minor or readily managed tactically. Points taken that you want to keep things fun for guys and burning them out endlessly with hiking back and forth to respawns really sucks the wind out of guys, especially in the latter timings. It all comes down to the guys though. Some can get their heads around the intent of the rules/game...others can't or willfully disregard things because it's "hard" or "not fun". Aside from the latter guys, from all the games I've seen (of any type) the only issues that arise are ones when the expectations aren't clear and common. Setting the rules so that you cannot go to respawn (or start your "bleed out" timer with medic rules) until the immediate firefight has completely finished is a good way to accomplish things. It also supports games where you're collecting "kill cards" or whatnot...since the dead guys don't get up and walk off before the fight is done. It might be a long wait if the area is strongly contested...but that's the cause and effect part of things. Having medics kick in afterwards will help with avoiding long hikes and losing people on respawns. |
My answer to that would probably be realism. You know, pull the bolt back to chamber a round, only have 30 rounds in your mag. Essentially, I guess it would be gas blow back rifles.
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the goal of military simulation is to reproduce tense situations of military fights, like these
http://www.slate.fr/sites/default/fi...hanistan15.jpg |
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It forces you to take only the good shots and focus on positioning for each shot. Until you try it, you won't know how satisfying it is to play with real cap. |
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End of debate! 😉
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That was just for fun! 😉 |
Milsim is just that. A Simulation of Military Activities. This means how you gear up, your movements, your speech.
I think capping mags at 30 rounds in the pursuit of "realism" is crap. It is the same thing with video games. Even some of the most realistic games take liberties with how many rounds of ammunition, the types of guns, the speed with you can use them and the amount of bullets you can take to the face before you die. Yet we still play these games (atleast I do). Realism needs to be balanced with fun. True Milsim would not be fun in anyway. Sacrificing some realism in the name of fun is best. That's why I believe midcaps are fine (real bullets can fire further than 200 feet and go through light underbrush) and that SAW gunners should have 2000 round drum mags (in real life 100+ rounds of ammunition can keep a lot of heads down). |
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True Milsim would not be shooty call of duty fun in any way. I would love to participate in a "true milsim". Moving as part of a unit, patrolling an area for hours on end ect. I always wanted to participate as the typical bored guard of a military establishment without any idea something was about to go down. These things I would love. |
Games like that exist. :)
I'm not sure how it is out in Alberta, but we've got them to varying degrees in southern Ontario. A lot of it is in the WWII reenactment groups, but they exist for "modern" or unspecified military eras as well. You occasionally hear people (mostly Brian McIlmoyle) talk about how the most fun they've had are at games where they never fired a shot. Or where there's an intense pressure of "don't get shot, because you'll be out for the entire game". After finally participating in such a game (~32 hours of trekking through an undeveloped forest, avoiding the enemy because we don't want to get shot out of the game, spending hours crawling slowly through a field or sitting around waiting or standing guard, and never firing a single shot for the entire OP), I can say that it is indeed very miserable and satisfying...And in retrospect, fun! If you can make it out to Ontario in October for a Deadfall event, you definitely should! |
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