A build
 

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jeebus, that's not asking for much, is it?
you probably want to hit up maciek, lurkingknight or anybody else brave enough to poke there heads up. (if either one of the two Stealths doesn't want to do it)

you're probably gonna want a MUCH bigger battery, definitely a new piston head, and maybe a stronger spring. don't know how the MERF will hold up either.

yikes, that's no way to build a DSG, let alone a normal gearbox.

I've been thoroughly surprised by the MERF (in a good way) when I got one, so I'd love to see it pushed to the limit by a DSG.

are you married to the MOE stock, or would you mind using something like a stubby stock? you can fit a rightly powerful battery in one of those, moreso if you hack it up a little.

yeah, I noticed the spacer after I posted, but something stronger would probably still be okay to give you a little wiggle room.

you will need a bigger battery. If not 11v, you want higher discharge and mah 7.4. Most guys who do these builds can't even find a spot for the battery, and just end up strapping it on outside the gun in a mag pouch on the stock. There aren't any nunchuck batteries that will provide the power you need.

While the battery you have will pull your dsged 130 spring, it's not going to do it at the best rof, in fact, you can probably beat that rof with a standard single short stroke setup and a big battery and a 13:1 gearset. DSG to me is a go big or don't do it at all sort of thing. There's no point in doing a DSG if you don't want under 45rps. Not to mention that you lose semi auto because you're going to get 2 round burst out of it more often than not in semi.

The lonex POM piston head gets rave reviews about it's lightweightedness. If you've got a lonex red, you definitely want to swiss cheeze it to drop some weight... lonex red be a fat bastard.


Why do you want a DSG gun in the first place? what's your objective? anything over 30rps is silly, it's a fun silly, but imo it ends up being a waste more than anything.

you can actually keep semi-auto with a reprofiled cutoff and stronger spring. (maekii mentions it somewhere...the hair trigger video gives you a good look at it) a chimera might also do the trick.

I agree with lurkingknight, if you're gonna build a DSG, might as well go balls out. it's not like you're saving money anyway >_> (sigh...if only Calgary's indoor rules allowed full auto)

are you using VFC bushings or bearings? the bushings will totally handle it fine (they're some of my favourites actually), but you might wanna pick up some ceramics if not.

Hey Nozomori, I got your message through John... I am having the definition of a busy summer and definitely don't have time for a project like this.

I can tell you that whoever does do this project, unless they are a DSG expert, is basically going to have to be married to the gun for a while if you want it done right. Unless you are having someone build this up from a preset familiar parts list they have already banged out a few times on a few builds, this won't like taking your Fairlady to the shop for a single turbo upgrade so much as taking your prized horse to race camp for a whole summer, if you get my drift.

I agree with throwing more power at this build, partially because DSG gearboxes are intensely power hungry, but also because on a DSG setup the fun will be over much sooner with a buffer tube battery.

One thing about guns at the extreme range of performance is that most pragmatic builds begin to sacrifice some realism or tacticoolness for performance considerations. My advice is to get that nice 416 stubby stock that G&P makes. Fits a 6000mAh LiPo with room to spare for computers n' stuff.

Finally, I'm not sure where you're located but 340fps is pretty suspiciously in the indoor range of power and I think most indoor places will scoff at the idea of someone waltzing around with a firehose north of 45fps.. Speaking from experience, you will be much happier building a powerful setup that fires 380 to 400fps at around 30rps and gaming that mostly outdoors. At that rate of fire, people will still come and talk guns with you, you'll make friends, you'll have ridiculous trigger response at semi-auto, and you will be within a wear and tear profile that is well-understood by many people. Something to think about.

+1 to Maciek statement.

I dunno what you want from this build but with DSG it's go hard or go home. Your battery is horridly underpowered for a DSG setup. You need to be looking at 2000+ mah with C values 30+.

I suspect you are not going get the performance you are asking for from a VFC motor.

This build is not going to be done "fast" or on a timeline you would be happy with. I dont think you can pay me enough to truly come our of retirement to build a DSG gun. And as far as I'm aware MaciekA, Thundercactus, Amos, Stealth are pretty much the only other guys who have actively worked on DSG or high energy in Canada that I am aware of.

I'd take a crack at a DSG just to say I've done it
Although I have a big issue working with someone else's parts list. I'll only use parts that I'm comfortable will do the job.
Unfortunately I won't be able to touch a project like this until september =/

Steve here, I'm going to chime in. Don't take this as a dissuasion from the project, I'm merely giving my experience.
I mean, we SELL DSG stuff, you'd think we'd try to push it more. Anyway...

There's a few reasons why DSG isn't wildly popular:
1) It's not very practical - I know this is an over-arching statement but I don't think I've been in a game situation where I needed that sheer volume of ammo. Most indoor places are semi-only, and outdoors you're going to be outranged/outgunned (read #2). UNLESS you isolate your variables, and tune your barrel setup, etc. You'll run out of ammo VERY quickly. Yes I understand it's a novel idea to run around with a tiny DSG gun and literally put up a WALL of ammo every time you pull the trigger but it's a very unique playing style.
2) It's tricky - a lot of considerations come into play once you push past 40rps. Tappet plate doesn't retract fast enough, BBs have trouble feeding from magazines, pistons give up, double-shooting in semi unless you use an AB FET but even then you might run into trouble, too much gearbox vibration for consistency/accuracy/repeatability, etc.
3) The battery solution that you have to run isn't going to be aesthetically pleasing (relative to a thin buffer tube battery).
4) At any given game, <5% of players are even anywhere CLOSE to 30-35rps.

I'm also off until July and backlogged until August.

Is it just me or does the target FPS seem low for an M140 spring and "good" air seal?

that is correct fps for a dsg gear running a 130 spring.

A dsg is 2 cycles of the piston per 360 degree rotation, it doesn't have as many teeth on the sector, therefore you are running essentially a short stroke setup that doesn't pull the piston all the way back for 15 teeth. More like 8 teeth.

Well, I will chime in too.

I am NOT confident enough to build a DSG, especially with parts pre-bought.
However, I built some 30-35rps guns with "standard" AEG parts, and I think in you situation that would be a better and easier option than DSG.

Keep in mind, 30rps is insanely fast. I don't know if you have tried a fast gun or what is your standard for comparison, but past 25rps the gun usually acts more like a shotgun than a rifle.
Especially since you plan to run a V2-based gun and already think about lowering the RPS with the FET.

A simple short-stroke piston with a slightly harder spring, good quality STANDARD ratio gears and a rewound custom neodym motor (any LONEX would be a good start, but I really liked the JG blues for this purpose) + a FET/controller and a good quality 11.1v LiPo 5000+.

In the long run, it would be sturdier, more efficient, easier to maintenance and cheaper to fix when it breaks (and it will in both cases).

You also have to think that you will need LOTS of lowcaps. Mids don't feed properly and forget about highs.

Well to be very specific, the G&P piston head is the most likely cause of failure there. They don't call it "explosive" for nothing lol
In it's stead I HIGHLY recommend an ARS piston head, they are the shit.

But going on your description of what you want your gun to do, are you SURE an AEG is the best course?
The single most difficult thing to do with an AEG is to give it good accuracy on full auto, and that's inherent to all tappet plate based mechboxes. It's just not a high efficiency system. High ROF and decent performance at 120ft should be attainable, but don't expect this thing to unleash a hailstorm into a 1ft circle at 240ft.

But there is a platform that fills every requirement, and isn't a PTW lol
Polarstar!
High ROF, any FPS, extremely reliable, and best of all; short trigger pull!
The drop in mechbox for your DSG, after tuning and tweaking, especially after the gundoc bill, is gonna be close to what you'd pay for a P* drop in kit anyway

But I will warn you, there's 2 HUGE reasons 90% of people won't run high ROF (above 1500rpm)
1) completely unrealistic.
2) it scraps barrels like nobody's business. I've gone through 4 barrels on my 1500rpm 249, and King's P* has also gone through a barrel already.
If you're making a high ROF platform, it absolutely needs a widebore barrel

John here

Here's my braindump for something like this:

Don't touch the nozzle and tappet plate if you have good air seal. Keep those parts. VFC ain't that bad.

Check airseal before attempting anything else. I assume your prommy hop up stuff is all new, so replace one part, chrony, and replace another. Keep doing this until you get exactly the same FPS and a deviation of less than 5FPS. Be extremely cautious of feeding issues. There's no point attempting DSG if you can't even get a SSG to feed properly.

Shimming will be crucial. Some mechboxes require modifications to fit Siegetek gears, but I don't think VFC boxes will need it. Bevel-pinion method for shimming. Moe grips are larger than normal, so shove something inside so the motor stays where it is supposed to.

Take some high grit sandpaper and sand all the piston rails and tappet rails. It must be perfectly smooth and offer zero resistance to the piston. Test fit all moving parts.

Lighten the piston by swiss cheesing it. You also need to dremel off unnecessary teeth.

Make sure the piston doesn't get stuck inside the spring guide spacer.

AoE correction is a given.

ARL needs to be modified.

Before assembling the upper half, test and listen to how the gears sound. I've started using a watt meter to quantify the quality of my shimming. We just got a bunch from HobbyKing and they're a must-have tool for any gun doc.

Reassemble, but use the weakest battery you can find. Make sure your air seal is still good, and you're properly feeding every single round. If it jams, your piston's done. Slowly ramp up your ROF on the MERF as you go. Monitor current draw using the watt meter.

I'm not sure what other guys are doing, but in ottawa pretty much anything over 25 rps is unconventional. There's maybe 3 or 4 people here that have reliable guns shooting over 30. Even at that point though, both my 30+ers are down tuned normally to about 18rps to play.

30 is usually reserved for the guys who don't feel their hits.

Look up classic airsoft, they were the original airsoft. So with a P*, you're just wannabe old school :D

I'm not that versed in Mechbox setups, I can crack one open and do the very minimal if I'm really lucky/got lots of time to kill. Even then I usually let somebody who appreciates the workings fondle it.

I've got mad love for my P*, I would throw one in almost all my guns if I could.

Want high ROF? Simple push of a button, few flips of that button and bam.
Less/More FPS? Pretty damn simple.
Get used to the hose pretty damn quick, hasn't slowed me down.

It's shit simple and reliable. At most, you could break a nozzle as long as you work within the limited PSI range.
~$20 later, and you have a new nozzle, 5 minutes of time and the nozzle is installed.

all your issues, and issues presented by others have been addressed on ASM. particularly getting mags to feed at absurd ROFs.

your prommy barrel and r-hop is fine. it should really be the least of your worries. (comparatively)

most people who tackle a DSG project are the techs who want to use it themselves. if you're the kind of person who likes getting thrown into the deep end, this would be one hell of a pool.

it may be totally impractical, but don't let them talk you down lol. =D you can look at a bunch of ASM users' DSGs for inspiration. semi-auto without AB, 100% feeding @ 60+ rps, nearly 400 fps in some cases, things like that.
it can be done. it's definitely not easy, but it can be done.

ps if you're dead set on parting out this build, quite a few of the fellas that have posted would probably be interested.

If you're in the GTA area and can travel...contact KingCobra8888

He almost never posts and is hellishly busy with lots of real life stuff...but he's built more than a few DSG/highspeed/big batt-short stroked guns...and is an excellent builder in general.

If you want to get into the 45+ rps it's doable, but you'll probably go through a lot of cycles where it's working beautifully and then eats itself. You've got to realize that you're putting 2-3-more times the wear and strain on things with these kind of setups with every tigger pull. Be prepared for lots of down time and sunk in money.

Do not run them on small batteries...moreso because you know you won't be able to resist shooting it and will just beat smaller batteries to a premature death.

Once you've got a setup that works you may find that your biggest challenge is finding magazines that can keep up with your setup...and you don't want mis-feeds/hiccups.

You can easily get into the mid-30's rps with "standard" setups and even then it's not practical or player friendly.

That's ultimately up to you, but I would suggest one. It is expensive, so is your build most likely (time vs money)

Realize how much it costs, the pro's/cons of lugging and using HPA and go from there.

You'll need a remote line with regulator/stabilizer and an HPA tank.
The line will run you ~$200-300.

You can get one from http://palmer-pursuit.com/cart/air-s...8of9tle27t3db1. or you can contact Flagswipe paintball. Shawn built my rig, couldn't be more happier.
Perhaps contact your local PB shop and see if they can set you up. I went this route in case anything busts or I need wanted to tweak it one way or another, they're right by me.

The tanks can get expensive. I run a 62cu 3000 PSI tank, lasts for a good ~2000+ shots.
I have two just in case. They run for about ~$60 + shipping which wasn't horrible.
You can get a lot bigger and heavier, for more.

Here's my little write up on my P*:
http://ontarioairsoftwwiireenactors....pic.php?t=1747

Youtube was a huge deciding factor for me. I spent a week on there and a bit of Google before purchasing one.

I think it's just most people dont' want to deal with building a dsg gun for someone else. The ones on asm that are owned by people who didn't build them typically buy them off the builder long after they're built or the builder gets tired of it.

It takes a lot of time and effort to get a gun working properly above 30rps, ssg or dsg. You need time and space to test it, and more often than not you need to strip it apart and fix and try and fix an issue and put it back together, rinse and repeat. Even an R-hop install while not hard requires quite a bit of tweaking to get working right.

Quite frankly if I were offering my services as a tech, I would not build DSGs for people, I don't see it worth my time to deal with the constant tweaking to make it worth my while for man hours put in. If you were to hand this off to a builder, what kind of payment are you expecting to give for the hours put in?

It's not a matter of throwing in the parts and calling it done, that's a good way to blow something up. If I were building this gun it would be built as a solid single stroke setup with a DS compatible gearset. Once it's reliable at full stroke, you short stroke, once it's reliable at short stroke, you swap the sector gears. Only introduce 1 or 2 changes at a time so you know what's causing an issue.

Done properly the gun should last just as long as any other ssg setup in terms of round count, but most don't even get to that level.

My apologies I didnt see the Lonex Motor.

I have built somewhere between 15 and two dozen DSGs on different platforms.

I learned that the best route was to take the old gearbox and throw everything into the garbage can, and ground build up when possible .

DSG boxes require "special" maintenance. IE you will probably be taking it apart on a more frequent basis to re-lubricate and replace pistons etc. This means -you- will most likely have to do this job. Which IMHO defeats the purpose of getting a highly skilled tech to build the gun since -you- will have to maintain it (Not that I am bitching at $150.00/hour). For that reason, all of the DSG guns I built for other people are currently wall hangers.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's the implied "warranty" that goes along with everything that leaves my bench that concerns me and keeps me from building one up for someone. I don't mind doing it myself because I know exactly what goes into it, what its weak points are, etc. But if I'm building it for someone, I'd want it to leave my bench knowing that it's going to be fabulous and durable.

I can build reliable, 400fps, 25rps setups all day with my eyes closed because I know the parts can take it, but DSG builds are just a huge source of liability.

If you end up finding someone to take on this job, I hope they live closeby.

People just be hatin on the P*s cause they're so freakin GOOD

And agreed to the last 2 comments, I'd classify the DSG under one of those things that an AEG is capable of, but not recommended.
Like you can get an AEG to shoot like a PTW, but not for as long or as reliably
You can get an AEG to 40RPS, but not nearly as reliably as a P*
You can get an AEG to simulate blowback, but not nearly as reliably as a GBBR

Just because you CAN put a Renault RS27 in a given road car, doesn't mean you SHOULD.
As far as prestige goes, the gun is only cool while its working lol

P*... forgot about this, even if I want to buy one.

Check at Redlineairsoft. They sell "packages" with everything you need ton convert your gun (P*, lines, regulators, bottle, QD fittings etc.) They also custom build guns. Lastly, P* also do custom installs (you have to get the gun to them, and them back... that's the tricky part).

lol.. any gun is only cool when it's working.. it's like owning a hotrod that breaks down all the time.

Good luck! most likely you will not recoup the gun doc time R&D etc that you are going to put into the DSG setup if you are "trading". My first DSG was my personal one and it took well over 5 hours of build time and that was on an easy to work on platform v6 gearbox.