Propylene and GBBR's anyone tried it?
 

if you've seen the scoutthedoggie vids with Daedalus and his WE M14 EBR
he talks in this one about using Propylene, especially for cold weather
WE M14 Airsoft Gun Details Section8 Scotland - YouTube

Availability is no issue, you can find it at Home Depot, Canadian Tire etc and it uses a "CGA 600" fitting just like the propane tanks.

I do have questions regarding its volatility compared to propane as well as propylene's status as a "Volatile organic compound".

It is supposed to be a little harder on your gun as well.

Anyone actually used it?

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows....jsp?locale=en

I was using it in my we m14. No big
Issue for winter use. But don't do the mistake of using it in summer!
Here a little link
http://http://community.evike.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=62&func=view &catid=34&id=158262

some good points in the link, thanks

I laugh at the comment in the link about how flammable propelyn is. As if propane was all that much safer. I've used it in my we scar in cooler temperatures. It worked fine. Just be sure to release the gas before storage as the higher pressure makes mags leak quicker.

Don't use it. Propane works just fine in the cold.


Fox.

Where are you getting this info? Because it really doesn't. Not the same performance at all.

Argentina cold?...

propane suffers significant loss of pressure under 10 degrees c

basically it does not work in the cold..

if getting 10 shots out of a 30 round mag before the it vents is "working fine" .. then I guess I have higher standards

Argentina gets easily under 10 ºC in the Winter during the morning and night time (closer to 0-5ºC). My SCAR mags have been pretty much frozen outside and working fine. By work fine I mean normally, no difference at all.

I've gamed GBB's for a while. Where are you getting this info? Is the gun in fact failing for ya?

What gun are you running? If it's a crappy gun/crappy mag, it's gonna fail, hot or cold, just a bit more in the cold.

We all remember this one, right? WE G39C Performance in The Cold and Snow - YouTube And that's a buried mag and gun, if you keep the mags inside your vest, or whatever, and don't go crazy on the full auto, there's no reason why you shouldn't get that performance.


Fox.

I think a good number of these are Brian's....does not include his pistols. And it does not include the dozen odd M4 GBBRs that he had for some training exercises. But those training ones were all the same make model....so I suppose you wouldn't count those.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...GunNight29.jpg

I've never had much luck with propane gas in cooler/winter temps...ENLIGHTEN me please on how you're getting this "just fine" performance?

I think shape/size of the gas reservoir makes a difference. We were shooting kwa pistols at a friend's place last november... my 226, an open bolt WE pdw and ksc g18 all shot fine, while a friend's usp wouldn't even puff gas. Temps were definitely below 10C.

That same usp once warmed up shot fine.

It's maybe 5 in the morning here now; that's just about when we break out the long sleeved T-shirts.

We will be playing all winter at twenty below zero Celsius on a regular basis.

nice collection!
 

This is off topic, sorry I'm of no help with the topic, but this airsoft gun collection is sweet! Just needed to say! Nice work!

WE SCAR Open Bolt, VN Style Mags, it's in a DMR config. so semi only (which helps a lot), but still, I can mag dump a mag (activating the full auto), then load, mag dump again, then load, and it'll shoot as good as new with the mag pretty much frozen on the outside.

And what about the vid for the G39? That's a fake, right?

Maybe you haven't had much luck with the guns/mags you've tried, and propane ain't the culprit.


Fox.

Some guns work just fine with propane in the winter. They are in the absolutely distinct minority of exceptional exceptions. However the vast majority do not function or function well. I have a personal collection myself that is starting to get close to the picture Tyson posted and propane does them no good in the winter.

It's not really something you can debate. It's physics. Propane pressure drops by quite a huge amount when it gets cold. Most guns don't work. It's much in the same way I use duster in the blasting heat because the temperature is too high for propane creating warp speed BB's and a kick back that replicates real steel, but duster becomes a great substitute and keeps my guns from exploding and my airsofting safe.

I'll be trying the propylene at Shallow Lake this weekend. I'll report back with my findings.

I know, it depends a lot on gun and mags as I said earlier. But I'm just not convinced about heat and cold affecting FPS of the gun that much. We have temperatures as high as 40ºC in the summer, and as low a -5ºC in the winter. I haven't chronoed in those extremes, but I've chronoed in 35ºC, and say, 5ºC, and the FPS have been very similar (they did vary a bit, but not dramatically). Maybe it depends on the system as well? My main gun is a precision gun, so I've done extensive testing, but the other GBB's are all "grunt" guns.

To the OP, I've tried Propylene and I've hated it. If you can avoid it, do. If you find that your gun runs well on it on winter and is just not gameable on propane, well, you don't got much of an option.


Fox.

I've got a test for your WE Scar.

Fill the magazine. Take the gun and leave it at -5C area for an hour.

Switch to auto and pull the trigger. It WILL fail to fire all 30 rounds.
(Easy mode test. Fill the magazine. Put it in the freezer for an hour. Remove and fire immediately. It will fail.)

Yeah, but who's mag dumping with a GBBR...ever? And in those conditions? Plus, only the mag on the gun's at that temperature, the others should be kept inside your vest, or even on a special pouch for winter to keep 'em warm. If you play semi mostly, with a burst or two, and put the mags away when they are not on the gun, I'm very much sure most modern platforms should be gameable.


Fox.

Well, apparently you are...

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And the magazine that is in your gun is the most important one of all. You aren't going to spot a target, take a mag out of your vest, load your weapon and then shoot him... you're going to have your gun loaded when you're on the field.

As someone said before me, it is straight science. As temperature drops volatility and vapor pressure drop. There WILL be a decrease in performance (not necessarily performance).

uhhhhh....Canada plays in those conditions, and colder! -5C is nothing.

Yeah, for TESTING purposes. If I wanna play like a noob I just buy an AEG.

Theory is important, but not nearly as much as actually what works and doesn't. The OP first needs to figure out if his system isn't very good. Maybe consider changing for a more modern/reliable one to improve his odds. Then try propane, and if it doesn't work then go for propylene.

Of course the mag that's on the gun matters, but you can leave it on, once you're out change it for a warm one, while that one gets a chance to warm up. Heck, unless you're playing in CQB environments, you usually have a chance to put a mag in; you could virtually play with all your magazines at the ready on the "warm-pouch". Maybe it isn't super realistic, but gaming an AEG is a much worse option if you aim to that...


Fox.

Since you obviously haven't tried to game a GBB in cold weather, and I'm not talking -5 I'm talking about -15 and colder. I will give you some first hand insight.
Your propane mags will not function for s*it in the f*cking cold regardless of what magic you've performed on them to make them reliable.
Propane + Cold = Unreliable. It isn't just theory, its science! You don't have to "believe" it. We're telling you its fact.

You linked us to a video of a kid who shot 1 mag through a G36 and then couldn't dump the 2nd mag due to cool down. Yup, seems about right.

Who fires full auto with a GBB in the cold? Lots of people if you're trying to lay down covering fire and you don't have someone with a support gun close by and for some unknown decided it was a good idea to game your GBBR in the f*cking cold.

It really doesn't matter if you've got the mags in a vest with hand warmers and all sorts of other junk to keep them warm, as soon as you take them out the weather makes all that pretty much moot. This is accurate for the climate I play in, as well as probably 90% of the other people in Canada. Exception being BC, they've got lame sissy winters.

Fox, your idea of cold is our idea of t-shirt weather.

this is called airsoft Canada for a reason, winter in Canada can vary from -20 to -40 (if one city is unlucky)

A guy from Argentina giving advice on playing airsoft in cold weather? That's awesome!

BTW, I am going to give propylene a try, but I think a "winter spring" might be just as useful.

Wikipedia:

Many of the people I play with consider the bare minimum definition of "cold" to start at your apparent location's lowest temperature record ever. I've seen plenty of people try gaming their gas guns in the winter here and I've seen my share of "2 shots then spurts and nothing much else".

I will of course bow out of this if you travel outside of your area to play, I know there are entire regions of Argentina that get very very cold and are tundra-like.

Oh, so you don't run gas guns yourself? Helluva first hand experience.

Really? Every game in winter is on the -20 - -40 ºC range?

January in Calgary was just dandy (least the weather...). Don't think a day was below -5.

If all your games are on that range, well, then yeah, try propylene or whatever. It's like 3 months straight of -20 - -40 days, I understand. GBB's are bad for ya.


Fox.

...don't know what you're on about. :rolleyes:

guys here are _DEFINITELY_ using MAPP gas in the winter.

Alright, this is nonsense. We are arguing with someone over whether or not propane actually sucks in the cold. It's a waste of everyone's god damned time to argue over something that has long since been established as common sense. I have run into countless individuals who specifically did not get a GBBR due to it's inability to retain functionality in the winter months.

I suggest to ignore him - because he either has no idea what he is talking about or is deliberating trying to waste time - and continue with the discussion as posted.

@Fox: Umm... MaciekA definitely knows what he's talking about.

He provides high quality reviews and knowledge that works and is scientifically sound. I honestly don't know what you're on about. Now you're trying to backtrack and attack the person and not the argument? That's the ad hominem fallacy if I've ever seen it.

http://www.pbase.com/image/123764552/large.jpg

c'mon Fox. The colder the temp, the lower the pressure, the slower that bolt is going to move down your scar, thus more gas will be expelled to complete the cycle. Yes, you can keep your mags warmer to lessen this. But it's still going to be shitty.

Even though you use a "warm" pouch, regardless, you forget to account for weather condition and reality, it will get cold, like apple pie, fresh out of the oven, what do you do to cool it down, you place it near the window and let the air to cool it to desired temperature

I have first hand experience with a WE SCAR Open bolt in -20C weather.
Yeah, same gun you have.

VN-style 20-rnd, removed the end spring spacer to bump to 24rnd.
It was at an indoor venue, in Valley-Field, so wind was not a factor. Cold only.

Propane mag, topped-off and then heated to body temperature (that means that there was actually MORE propane in the mag than usual) COULD NOT empty 24rnd. Barely shot 10 before spraying ice in the rifle body.

That is because the ambient air around the mag is used to heat the magazine in normal conditions. It took half the mag for it to become freezing cold and ice to form on the shell.

Tested with CO2 mag also. That was a bit better. Weaker kick than usual but the gun fired all the rounds properly. The cartridge was frozen in place in the magazine shell.

Both tests where on SEMI, 2 rnds per second, in 5 rounds "bursts", spaced 5 seconds each.

I have not tested MAPP yet, but will probably this winter.

I have also shattered a nozzle on the second run of the CO2 mag, and could not double the test.

As for semi/full,
I played this week-end. Most of the time SEMI.
But please, explain to me how you would have engaged 7 players at 50' when they saw you and turned to shoot?
I flipped the switch to AUTO and burst. Got 4 of them before I was hit.

Hey, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This forum is full of Canadian airsoft players who play in the winter all the time every year, year after year. I say that this community and our collective anecdotal experiences in our weather environment arguably constitute a community of experts on the topic at hand. You made an extraordinary claim contrary to the general consensus as well as contrary to the generally-accepted science, which says that the pressure of Propane at what we consider to be cold is absolutely not qualifiable as "fine".

Remember, we don't require a mountain of data to back up a well-known, widely-accepted and repeatedly tested and observed consensus that confirms itself every winter, and you can't accept to not have a dozen people jump down your throat when you contradict common knowledge with a one-liner with nothing convincing to back it up. So convince em'.

That's more like it.

Every forum needs their own "Ronan."

Wave goodbye to Fox62, everyone.

Sadly not the first time he goes all smart ass, and the thread becomes a massive argument. Was it a perma-ban if I may ask ?

His contribution to the forum was hovering somewhere around nil, so yeah.

I haven't seen any numbers published yet, so I ran some BBs through my chrono to compare propane to propylene. Here's what I got:

Propane

404.4
397.5
378.5
386.7
390.2
398.8
387.5
375.8
388.5
381.8
Average = 389.0

Propylene

434.4
434.1
421.2
414.2
416.5
407.5
410.6
407.3
399.0
415.8
Average = 416.1

- The test was conducted in 19℃ temperatures, 35% humidity.

- Propane used was Coleman brand. Propylene used was Bernzomatic brand.

- The rifle is an upgraded WE M16A3 with a 500 mm Angry Gun tight bore barrel. The NPAS valve was opened more than normal for consistent gas flow.

- The magazines were new, previously unused WE M16 types of the latest design, well marked to avoid confusion between gas types.

- Each mag was purged, fully filled, purged again, then fully filled for the test.

- The mags remained together for thirty minutes prior to the test, so their contents were at the same temperature.

- I fired one throw away round prior to testing, then fired five rounds with each gas, switching back and forth to keep the magazines from becoming cooled by their respective gases.

- I threw out the highest and lowest velocities for each gas to avoid anomalous reading (although the highest and lowest numbers were not inconsistent with all the other readings).

The real test will come when temperatures drop lower. For now, it can be inferred that propylene delivers slightly higher velocities than propane (about 7%) in warm weather.

Of further note: the type of propylene I used had a scent added to it, just as propane does. If you don't like the smell of propane, you will hate propylene. It has a very sharp and acrid sort of scent.

I'm looking forward to seeing numbers from other testers, especially in cooler temperatures.

I think the power fall off is less dramatic in colder temps but you'll still get down to the point where it will be too cold to function. Even with propelyne, dedealus' m14 would vent the entire mag occasionally, and I don't think scotland is as cold as canada.

Having tried MAP out in GBBR's I can say it works great. But I'll never use it ever again. It was like a skunk exploding in my face every time I fired a shot. That stuff is toxic.

Good riddance to Fox. I've yet to read a thread where he contributed to anything other than starting arguments.

Oh, btw Fox, when and if you were in Calgary in the winter and it was 5 dec C, it was during a Chinook. Google that shit. It still gets to -30 here too.

Because I'm bored:
These values are taken from air-liquide's vapor pressure tables.
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/E...a.asp?GasID=54
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/E...a.asp?GasID=53
Because they are vapor pressure tables, we know they are for a saturated mixture, which is more often than not the state found in our magazines during use. A saturated mixture simply means there is both liquid and vapor existing in the container at the same time.

Propylene at 0* C -> 600 KPa
Propane at 0* C -> 450 KPa
25% pressure difference

Propylene at 19* C -> 1100 KPa
Propane at 19* C -> 850 KPa
22.3% pressure difference

So there's nowhere in here we can assume a linear relationship for anything, so there's no point in any further calculations. Not to mention, there is way more at play here than just temperature and pressure. I could write a thesis on it... nope.
Rob's results have a 6.5% velocity difference at 19*C, and since there is a higher relative pressure difference at 0*C, I hypothesize that at lower temperatures we will see a velocity difference higher than 6.5%. A conservative estimate would be 9%, but that's just a completely arbitrary number I came up with.

Fun Facts:
- Propylene has the same pressure at 0*C that Propane does at around 7*C. Do not assume they will act the same at their respective temperatures, but its food for thought.
- Propylene is "Non recommended, significant swelling" for most common o-ring materials. Possible effects on test results could include gas valves not opening completely due to increased friction from swollen o-rings, or leaks cause by excessive swelling of o-rings.

[4th year Mechanical Engineering student for hire....]

Is there any way you clones could stop chatting about the weather in Calgary, so those who are focused on the subject at hand won't have to deal with your ramblings?

Perhaps a mod could filter the irrelevant content out of this thread? It would be nice to actually use this as a resource.

Possibly a dumb question on my part, but is there some way to mix gasses of this kind to "blend" their temperature->pressure properties depending on the desired application?

Not a dumb question. It will technically work.

HOWEVER: Blending of corrosive / explosive gasses can be extremely dangerous. (Read: Explosive)

With my extremely limited knowledge I'm guessing getting the mix ratio perfectly right is probably not easy from a "regular Joe" usability point of view either.

Side note..

Has anyone thought about somehow keeping the gas warm until the moment right before use?

A player could maybe carry around a large LiPo somewhere on their rig that powered a Peltier heater, or maybe a set of them, wrapped around mags. Peltier-based heaters can be very very compact. You could imagine lining a bunch of mag pouches with them. You would need to ensure good thermal conductivity to your mags as well as insulating your rig reasonably well (if playing in much worse cold for example).

If something like that could work, then the mag would only begin to really experience significant cooldown during actual shooting and/or while inserted into the magwell.

Perhaps someone could make a sort of Mag pull style accessory for the winter, i.e. "Mag Booties", where you wrap the mag in some kind of thermally-insulating jacket. Combine this with a Peltier plate, and Propene, and just maybe it would be enough for a game.

Over in AEG land, I've been looking into insulating my AEG's full stock during winter time, or maybe even wrapping the entire stock in something like Thinsulate or some kind of Fleece, to keep it toasty during games when the temperature sags well below zero. With the MOSFET sharing the same space as the battery and getting quite warm during lively semi-auto fire, there's a chance I could get a decent stable temperature in there. I would love to stuff an Arduino unit or something in there during testing and actually gather some data.

Could you just drop some hand warmers into your mag pouches?

I use a blend of duster gas (HFC-134a) and propane on extremely hot days (28℃ and above). I give each mag a good two second shot of duster, then top it up with propane. This blend keeps the velocity from spiking in the heat. You could also run pure duster, but that'll take a good 100 fps off the BBs.

The problem with that is, what about the mag in your gun? It'll get cold unless you're a mag-a-kill kind of person (and if you are, I hate you).

If it's an M4, Mag Booties / Thermal jacket for the mag.

If it's a pistol, then it stays holstered in the cozy area in your jacket until it is needed. When returned to holster, it starts to re-warm the rapidly-cooling mags.

These aren't ideal but I think it would be worth testing out how far we can get this winter.

How about just fabric-taping a handwarmer to each mag? That way they travel with the mag, whether in pouch or in the gun.

Not to defend Fox, but his altitude might have had an effect on his GBBR's performance. Argentina is quite mountanous, so if he was playing at a much higher elevation than most of us, it might've worked for him as gases expand differently at different altitudes. Either way, we Canucks need alternatives to propane, pants down, cause shiz gets really friggin cold here.

I read this thread last month and I thought I would give this stuff a try. It works amazing. I tried it out last night and tonight with my closed bolt WE M16 it was about 5-8 degrees celsius. I have tried propane in about the same conditions maybe a little warmer and I have experienced serious double feeding and random bb flight paths. Propylene is by far superior to propane in my books.

I picked up a small can of bernzomatic MAPP but the AI adapter doesn't work with it :-/
(valve is too deep in the throat of the fitting.
any one used a brand that is compatible with the AI or metal adapters?

Warming mags,

Lots of people have tried this... The issue is the mags generate their own cold as the gas in the mag phase changes from liquid to gas. One, two shots in the mag is down to ambient external temp .. The cooler that is .. The lower the expansion pressure.. So if you marm a mag, it will be primed for the first few shots, and then it will perform the same as a cold one.

I am interested in the propylene results and will try it

I use this size of propylene fuel:



The tank is a handy size I can easily carry in my web gear. It also works fine with the AI plastic adapter. :)

damn :-/ bottle looks almost exactly the same as mine but marked as "max power" rather than "quick fire", I'll have to bring the AI adapter next time I pick up a bottle