High Pressure air
 

I saw on this forum a way to hook up tubing to a co2 canister like in paintball, now that I know how to do that i have a question.

Is there a way to hook up the airline to the internals of a GBB rifle not through the magazine? I would imagine that if you used an appropriate CP high pressure regulator you could essentially take the internals out of a gbb rifle, put them in a new body with the CP reg and then hook the cp reg to where the canister would usually match up.

Then you could use AEG clips on this new creation. Does anybody have any thoughts or suggestions for accomplishing this. Or if it is really this simple does anybody see any holes in the idea for the design?

HPA is way more consistent and works excellently in cold weather and doesnt cause cool down. If you run HPA through the internals at the right pressure it literally would eliminate the advantage that AEG's have over GBB's

Look up Classic Airsoft.

look up daytona gun kit
its been done.
though the entire internal workings have been custom made, not just converted from a regular GBBR

RA-tech uses an external air linked to there WA m4 mag....

Ok I am aware that both escort and daytona gun exist, i meant specifically about using stock GBB internals. If you can run CO2 through it, there is no reason you cant run HPA through it.

As a matter of fact in paintball, many of the high end guns that i own (Vice, ripper 3, ego9, angel ir3) all require high or low pressure air tanks because they are cleaner and more effecient, CO2 damages the internals

My man issue with the daytona gun is that the safety doesnt work and they are trying to make me buy their tank, well i have my own 200 dollar 4500 tank that will hold more shots and be smaller than the 3000 tank they are making me buy. plus I dont really want an ak I want to apply this system to a semi auto sniper rifle first.

If you have an air compressor, could you theoretically fill up GBBR mags with HPA? or would the pressure be to great

GBB mags are meant to handle 160psi... 180psi TOPS. That's for propane.

HPA tanks hold about.... 4,500psi. Hope you're wearing body armor when you try to fill that bad boy up. LOL

Secondly, because HPA doesn't go through a phase change like propane does (liquid to gas), and is only in gas form, you'll get maybe... 3 shots off before you're out of gas. That's assuming the magazine didn't blow up, or the bolt exploded out of the back of the buffer tube and embedded itself in your shoulder. The pressure would drop exponentially on each shot. For example, first shot would expel at 4,500 psi. Second shot, would have maybe 500psi left. And the final shot might have 10psi. If even that. More likely, all pressure would be expelled by 1 or 2 shots. It's the exact same as if you filled your GBB mag upside down so that only gas is going in to the mag.

The only reason why HPA external air rigs work, is because a regulator valve is put in line to control how much pressure goes to the magazine. You'll have a hard time finding the space to put a regulator between the magazine and the gun.


There was once a guy who decided to fill up a WE propane mag with a Madbull CO2 adapter. Full pressure 12g CO2 canisters are up to 850psi. Needless to say, the magazine exploded in his hands. Full shards of metal flying everywhere. He was lucky he was wearing gloves and had face protection on.

** hpa project **

Illusion DEFINITELY knows what he's talking about. And I'm not being sarcastic.

Make sure you let us know when your charging up your gbbr mags with liquid co2 and HPA, I want to be in a bunker underground somewhere.

Have you?

A WE CO2 magazine runs off of a CO2 powerlet.

The gas is contained inside the powerlet, not inside the magazine walls.

Might want to check your reading comprehension skills there. The quote you took from me was out of context. Thanks for parroting everything I said, though. It backs up my statement.


surely this guy doesn't know what he's talking about WE co2 mags and co2 in general.

First, WE CO2 mags are charged with a 12g powerlet that is inserted in to the magazine, just like with pellet guns. It's NOT charged in to the mags like we do with propane.

Secondly, these 12g powerlets are NOT in a liquid state as you might be so inclined to believe. It is still in a gaseous state. In order for CO2 to form in to its liquid state, you would need immense atmospheric pressure to cause the phase change. It is not just temperature that would cause it to change phases, like liquid>gas propane. Specifically, it must be at 5.2 atmospheres or higher. That kind of pressure would crush you like a tiny ant.

Okay, thanks for the enlightenment ILLUSION. Not too familiar with the different pressure ratings of compressed gasses. So what we GBBR owners need for winter is a way too hook up a remote line to our gun, and run a large tank on our vest...

what about mag change? you're gonna have to disconnect the air line and reconnect it each time you change mag...lol

if you want HPA airsoft.... either go Daytona Gun, or the new Polar Star Hpa mechbox

That's the problem... If you could fit the line up through the mag, and replace the internal workings with a highcap internals it could theoretically work... Not that I like high-caps...

:rolleyes:

Meh, save yourself the headache with this:

http://www.popularairsoft.com/files/...ar_HPA_02b.jpg

http://www.popularairsoft.com/news/p...-system-update

:rolleyes:

I dont really care, I got a G&P gbbr... :D

Illusion has mentioned the phase change issue which is the main problem of filling a mag with HPa - lack of shot capacity. The 12g CO2 cartridges used with CO2 GBBR mags do hold liquid CO2. Liquid CO2 has a density of 0.77g/mL at a pressure of about 800psi (~56atm). At this density, 12g relates to about 15.6mL of liquid phase CO2 which I find consistent with the small size of 12g cartridges which have an external volume somewhere around 20mL (cross section area x length). If your curious:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

The other issue is being able to swap mags. GBBRs typically get their gas from their removable mags so you find yourself either modding mags with hicap mechanisms and running gas into the mag body a la http://www.e-rivera.com/hpa_project/ and having a rifle which is pretty much married to it's single mag. Alternatively you could swap mags and deal with having to moving around a QD fitting with each mag change to conduct gas through each mag which also is rather stinky.

Perhaps a neater solution would be to modify a mag by cutting off some of the top portion, including the fire valve and upper features which relate to mating the top of the mag with the nozzle pneumatics. Permanently mount that stub mag into the receiver and modify a pile of mags to be received which do not have the pneumatics stub that you permanently mounted in the rec'r. It'd take a pile of work, but you'd have a rifle that you could swap mags and run HPa without moving connectors around.

A bit late, but here's the polarstar hpa gun shooting

YouTube - PolarStar Gen 1 - In action

HPA are being used to rig the magazine and not being use as air charger numbnuts besides you will never find a regulator that can output that pressure. :rolleyes:

you really are in illusion state aren't you?:confused:

if powerlets are in pure vapor state that just means they already run out of its liquid form, you will only get about a shot or two max it will not cycle the bolt and it will release the remaining air inside the capsule. this is the hissing sound you'll hear when you run out of gas.

co2 in powerlets are partly liquid until you puncture the capsule and some of its liquid expands into vapor and goes to expansion chamber, then the pressure will equalize between the mags and the powerlet (850psi in 20 degrees C) most of the liquids are still in the powerlet but there are already co2 gas in it as well; most of its gas co2 is in the chamber.

i guess you're kidding right? as this is just plain stupid, not even air rifle can achieve this output pressure, they are regulated air meaning there is a regulator that controls the air output on each shot. 600-850 psi. this are paintball tanks

ive been using co2 mags and iv got plenty of them, a single capsule will give you about 120 single shots in summer where gas mags with propane only gives you 90 shots max. they are both allergic to low temperature.

im using HPA rig as well with modified co2 magazine that im running at 650-700 psi, im not wearing any body armour. :D will post video soon.

PolarStar Airsoft ... man I've been waiting for the guy to complete that for the past two years

:P there's finally a working prototype :)

He specifically asked "could you theoretically fill up GBBR mags with HPA", numbnuts. Get your reading comprehension skills updated. :rolleyes:

Yes, I am. I stand corrected. The powerlets carry liquid, as proven by MadMax. I'd incorrectly assumed there was no liquid, as you can't hear swishing as you would with a propane tank.

No, I'm not kidding. But I'm not serious, either. It was theoretical regarding the original question, of "IF" you could get pure HPA in to the small confines of a GBBR magazine. I KNOW there isn't a regulator that controls the air output in a GBBR magazine, and that there are in-line regulars assembled with external rigs. I also know that guns can't handle that kind of output pressure - I clearly stated all this in the rest of my response, if you'd cared at all to read it in whole, rather than picking out specific parts taken out of context.

Good for you. I never said you needed body armour to use HPA with a CO2 mag. My response was to the ORIGINAL question that I quoted, which was asking if HPA could be put in to GBBR magazines. I had assumed that the poster was referring to regular propane magazines.

Man... All they need to do is make a V3 HPA kit (and maybe add some sort of blow back mechanism), then I'm sold. Otherwise I'm probably going to see if I can get my hands on a DaytonaGun. Man.... too many options and I'm still making my ACAD dwg assembly and details for the thing that i have to custom fab.....

Do want a V3! man, that would be nice.. or a v6 XP meh only time will see if it expands

that dude really has done it.

this is friggin awesome!!

YouTube - WE M4 HPA System GBBR CQBR

i really want one! ;)

thing is the bolt does not lock back....

why the hell would you want the bolt to lock up? you don't need this during skirmish. he got 850rounds capacity more than 28x worth of magazines.

just use the normal gas mags or co2 mags if you want bolt lock but Iv seen his rig in the field, sure im one of those people that duck my head everytime he fires it up.

the sound is just amazing, pure thunder.

That thing is a mixture of cool and gay.

Running around with 800+ rounds in one clip is dumb. Just like high caps are dumb. They ruin everything cool about airsoft. Yeah, yeah, it's cool that he now has a consistent(?) gun but that kind of ammo capacity takes away from realism of it. Now, if there was something that went directly into the gun and utilized the regular mags, I'd be down. I would get that.

Hmm my time to shine

If you want to convert propane mag to hpa it can be done, ra-tech sells the adapter mcmaster Carr also. You need a stabilizer as well, Palmer pursuit is the preferred choice. It's gonna cost $250 to setup just to let you know

As for external air, they the strongest kicking, and least recoil gbbr to date. Mags are aeg making it easier to handle.
There's a daytonagun with everything you need to use in the classified right now.

fixed.

and a little more realistic.... it would have been cool if he made a c-mag at least then it would have been a little more plausible that he's got that many rounds

you'll never find a realistic gun with external rig, the rig itself takes away the fun.

the cool thing about his rig is the ability to switch between mags when temperature get a bit higher, that means he can still use a normal gas mags and a co2 mags. so if you want pure realism, that's the way to go, in-mag gas mags with 30shots capacity that even daytona gun will fail to do.

once you've modified your gun to run off external air, you will never want to have a 30 shot capacity in your mag and change it every time it's empty, unless you want to give yourself stupid handicap during skirmish.

its called realism, if you hate it, then fine, but dont trash it.

Thanks! ;) My bad.

im pretty sure those little kids with high caps on rentals that run around every skirmish sites been sodomizing you up your arse.


you like realism and yet you wanted an external air rig that goes directly to the gun and utilize regular mags, isn't it just like fuckin your own ass? where is the realism in that?

once you air rigged, the realism is gone no matter what you do, it is just hypocrite saying high caps are dumb but you wanted external air source.

i hope you already have gbbr that uses in-gas-mags otherwise your missing out a lot, they have a capacity of 30BBs and they shoot like real thing with recoil and shit, but once you've used them in skirmish, you'll realize straight away how stupid you are wanting something with "realism" with huge handicap because of low cap.

How is it hypocritical to say wanting a consistent gas powered system whether it's rigged on a line or not? I have a sling connected to my gun, so having a line running from my pack along my sling to my gun isn't something I'd be against. I'm not following you on how that takes away from realism in the way the gun operates.

I have a WE M4. All I care about is consistency in any climate while still using it in a realistic way, low-mid caps. And buddy, I've been playing for quite some time so I'm very familiar with how games are played. High cap games are typically avoided or ammo restrictions are put in place where I play.

Have fun playing with your kids, kid.

Oh, and did you sign up on here just to rant about this?

^ this

New HPA info?
 

Reviving an old thread here since I'm not quite satisfied with the answer... There have been developments in the field of HPA/ CO2 that allow an individual to sub-regulate the output pressure of a CO2 or HPA tank.

EXAMPLE: http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...O2_Adapter.htm

Previously there was not a way to easily regulate the output PSI of a HPA tank without knowing what you're doing and having custom work. This often would result in people putting ~800 PSI of HPA into things only rated for ~80PSI (Duster), ~130PSI (Propane/green gas). I use approximate pressures because of gas laws (PV=nRT) and nothing is every the exact same as lab conditions.
Vapour pressure charts:
CO2
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/i...r_Pressure.GIF
N2O (HPA)
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/i...r_Pressure.GIF
C3H8 (Propane/ Green gas)
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/i...r_Pressure.GIF
1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane/HFC-134a (Duster gas)
Pages 6 and 7 of
http://www.pfri.uniri.hr/~pkralj/R13...mo_prop_si.pdf

In case you're lazy...
1 Bar =100kPa ~=14.5 PSI
273.15K = 0C
800PSI ~= 55 Bar
450 PSI ~= 31 Bar
130 PSI ~= 9 Bar
80 PSI ~= 5.5 Bar

Anyways... Since the above adapter is said to be variable between 0 PSI and 1200 PSI, IF it was set to the appropriate pressure, I believe it would be safe to use HPA with duster and propane/ green gas. Although the HPA would now be considered MPA or LPA.

Final questions:

Q1: Can HPA be used in a CO2 device IF it is properly sub regulated down to the operating pressures of CO2? For example filling a CO2 mag with HPA at 800PSI or less.

Q2: By extension could the same principle be applied to duster (~80PSI) and propane/ green gas (~120PSI) devices? For example an Airsoft Innovations tornado grenade or a GBB green gas mag with HPA set at 100PSI.

Lotta PB and airsoft rigs have been made with 2 regulators. One at the bottle ine "mini" in line that often can be set from 0-600 or 800 or 1200psi depending on the regulator.
Runing external is still the best way to get consistancey and run it in cold tempratures.
As for using that co2 charger to run any gun/device by setting the proper psi.
Yes technically it should work but it wont really improve consistancy because the gas chamber is so small in a magazine itll be far lowwer pressure by the last shot.
Lotta guys use an adapter like that to run bb shower nades (40mm)
It technically should work for a tornado nade a pistol a gbbr or whatever you like so long as you dont exceed the strength of the device.
Folks use 800plus psi of co2 on 40mm nades. Ive heard of 280psi of HPA on a gas sniper rifle in a modified GG mag.
I think most folks use this co2 adapter
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwol...O2_Adaptor.htm
And in order to use hpa your prety much stuck with and external setup for 2 reasons. 1 is the volume of gas isnt gonna be enough in a mag
2 is youll need the external setup anyhow and then somehow rig up that adapter to the end of it to fill your mags and such so u may as well just use the rig.

Thanks for the confirmation and speedy reply. Since I already have the tank, a 68/45 HPA tank, I think I'll save the $38 and just get the top end. I plan on using it as a universal system for all my grenades and pistol mags.

Exactly.

IF you skirmish.

We don't. We stalk through the woods for hours without firing a single shot. No better. No worse. But please stow the attitude. Skirmish isn't everything airsoft is.

You focus way to much on the "arse fucking" as well. Gay is OK with me but maybe don't broadcast so much.

Will not work for grenades. Will only work for pistol mags if you have a remote line feeding it.

Replacing CO2 with HPA in a closed system like a grenade will fail if you attempt to pressurize it to a useful pressure. Expect blown seals and valves and a pathetic end result. HPA is compressed air and you are limited to the internal volume of the grenade. The expansion of compressed air is far less than that of CO2.