Range question
 

Hey guys, I am still a little lost on this range thing and wanted everyone's opinion. So obviously Im new to airsoft. I have been deciding on my first gun for weeks now and Im pretty sure I found it. But I still keep getting mixed opinions on distance. Some people tell me I could get a gun with shorter barrel and upgrade to 400fps (my field limit) and have it shoot just as far as a longer barrel gun. This dosnt make much sense to me but if its the case then I am going to buy a shorter fun instead. I was looking at the sr10 by KWA, I live in the states so no clear gun or whatever it is. I would want to shoot 150-200 ft if i can get more then I would be thrilled. I know that accuracy isnt super possible at that range but oh well. Also at closer distances, consistent accuracy would be nice too.

It is generally agreed upon that a longer and tighter barrel will allow the bb to accelerate to a higher velocity with less turbulence and thus allow you to get a more accurate shot at range. However this is also dependent on other factors such as the cylinder porting and head as well as the general air seal and hop up type.

Sufficed to say, if you want to improve accuracy at range your best bet is to use a slightly heavier bb of good quality. Such as a .28

Cheers

Also, don't expect accurate fire beyond 200 feet without a monumental amount of tweaking and a substantial investment.

You will be consistant at close ranges with any quality weapon, and yes a good set up can yeild radical results with a short barrel but a good set up can be an elusive goal. I run a m110 spring and a 363mm at 6.03mm Tight/Narrow barrel. That said, I just use your average kids baseball field as a mental picture as I play. The analogy is that I can hit out of the park but not by much. Not a great idea but I used to constantly drop bbs 20-30ft in front of my target X(

With whatever setup the mechbox is in, you will get a bit more distance with a longer barrel. Like mention before, the bb will have more time in a longer barrel thus shooting the bb farther. With the exact mechbox but using a shorter barrel, the bb's will spend less time within the barrel so that will reduce distance. It won't make much of a difference if you're comparing an M4A1 to and M16 barrel. You will notice it with a cqb compare to an m16 barrel. Just my $0.02.

Thanks for the quick answers. So I will go with the SR10, I hope they are reliable lol. What upgrades should I look at? Also what are the best Bio BBs? We have to use biodegradable at my field.

The "best" that is a heavily opinionated question. A question that is better suited to the local players at your field. Since everyone at your field has to use BIO BBs it would be best to ask locally.

Why try to change or fix something that is not broken? Why upgrade initially? Especially since you don't know what you want. Its best to simply use your AEG for now until you become comfortable with it and understand what you require to change in order for it to suit your needs better. Play with it now so you can learn what you need to change later.

Heard good things of Bioval BBB but there are some rumors going around they can crack glass and stuff and may be banned at your field.

As for range, keep it at 380 or so, 400 is a LIMIT not a GOAL. If you shoot hot at chrono then you're gun will be benched for the day and you'll have to rent or use a loaner. Not such a big deal there as I'm sure other players have 2 or 3 guns and can lend you one as a loaner.

To get the maximum range a good hop up, rubber and spacer is what you want. It will do much better than some long barreled clone shooting 400 FPS.

Final words I have to say, upgrade the PLAYER not the gun. You can rock a crapsoft from Crappy Tire or Wally World and still be competitive. You just have to outsmart the other players and be extra sneaky. I've been shot with a $5 springer before when we were playing defend the base. Guy snuck up around and when I popped my head out to check for enemies (I knew someone was sneaking around) got shot in the shoulder.

I understand that player is more then anything. While using shitty rentals I am successfully able to strategically kill most of the other team. But if I can create an unfair advantage by having a gun that shoots a little better then Im going to do that also.

About the upgrades, I have the money to get whatever, but I can get a discount on my first order. So I want to order as much as possible with that order to save some cash. I know I will want a 6.01mm inner and the other parts listed above. I am not putting them in right away however, I will use them after several times of using the stock gun. I also was curious abut an H nub, how much do they improve the accuracy? My field has a 400fps limit for full auto, but I can go over that and use semi. I would prefer to get my gun shooting just under that at the chrono with .25gs.


Last there has to be Bio BBs that stick out among all the others. Im looking for consistency.

Then you want BB Bastards

FPS + Hop up(Setting) + BB = Range

whether short barreled or longer barreled does not affect the range. This is grade 10 physics, when a BB leaves the barrel, it has no memory of where it left from.

a 400FPS gun with 200mm barrel is the same as 400FPS gun with 500mm long barrel range wise.

I believe that you don't want a 6.01 then, I was told that 6.03 is probably what you'll want because of some reason or another (anyone back me up on this?), the only time you should use a 6.01 is a BA or semi rifle.

BB Bastard also makes a Bio BB now so check them out as well as the Bioval BBB. Who knows maybe you can even become a regional Bastard.

Also depending on the brand of gun you get it might be a wise idea to purchase a correctly ported cylinder as some companies just use a non ported cylinder on all their lineup.

Finally, 400 FPS they mean on .20g BB's. Really they should say 1.41 Joules MAX but 400 FPS (using .20g BB's) is much more easily understood by the general public.

I recommend Prometheus Barrels, their 6.03 but they are some of the best barrels on the market in my opinion.

According to the review listed here on another website along with information I found on other websites like the KWA home site.

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/KWA-SR10-t164817.html
http://www.kwausa.com/products_sr10.html

In stock form the KWA SR10 outputs between 380- 390FPS with a 0.20g BB and has a stock 6.05mm barrel. Change the existing barrel to a Prometheus barrel and perhaps swap out the hopup for something to match the FPS in that range. I think that should put you in the 400 area that you're looking for.

If you wanted an output of under 400 with a .25, you could swap the spring for Prometheus MS120SP. Which should put you somewhere in the 425-430FPS with a 0.2g. Its hard to give an exact number but it should put you around 380FPS with a .25g.


My previous comment about asking local people who play on your field still stands..

I don't agree with you at all.

I've made a 250 FPS gun that drastically our ranged most 380+ FPS guns.

It's all about tight compression and consistency along with selecting the proper hop-up rubber to your target FPS

I am talking about maximum range

please explain the science behind how tight compression and consistency will give you more maximum range.

Tight compression = more FPS + consistent FPS. So it is more FPS.

Consistency = consistent FPS which I don't see how it can increase maximum range.

The hop-up effect eliminates the whole "SHOOT AS FAST AND HARD SO IT'LL GO FURTHER BEFORE GRAVITY MAKES IT DROP" ideology here.

If you're gun is putting the proper amount of air (every time) down the barrel the BB will be riding on the same air every time, people with major air leaks or an inconsistent sealing piston head will not have sufficient air to push the BB out of the barrel properly so there's a chance it'll contact the barrel and greatly effect range/accuracy.

It's similar to someone using a MP5K cylinder in a M16 length barrel (as an extreme example)

My field chronos .25g BBS, so I am referring to 400fps using them. So wait a minute, the barrel length dosnt have anything to do with the distance?? Dosnt make a ton of sense to me but if thats the case then I guess I could get away with a shorter gun. And there is a lot of talk about good consistency based from compression, how do I guarantee this with my gun?

understandable. But what you are saying is, a 250 FPS consistent gun, will consistently shoot up to 150feet maximum(For example). But if a 400FPS gun is also just as consistent, with the good choice of hop up parts, will go to(for abstract example), 200feet maximum.

Because do you not also agree that,

a 50 FPS gun will shoot farther than a 10 FPS gun? That is pretty much common sense, even if the hop up is doing its proper job, the result is quite clear.

There's a ridiculous amount of variables in all of this -- I'm not saying FPS plays NO effect in range, I'm just saying that it's not as important of a factor in the way that people think it is.

You originally never stated anything about how the guns were built, you simply said:

FPS does play a small part in range, but not nearly as much as a good BB, hop-up and compression parts do.

Sorry, in Canada (and most other places I know of) we usually measure using .20's so if you chrono doing .25's then that's fine and dandy. You're aiming for 1.86 Joules then (about 450 on .20's). Which in that case may be dangerous for most guns due to higher stresses placed on the internals (but if it can handle it then that's all good).

Also use .28's and bring it down to 375, you'll see a drastic improvement in accuracy. And when you get a hop up rubber you'll want to use a "hard" rubber such as the Prometheus Hard or other comparable stiff rubber.

Amos is right, Skladfin usually doesn't know what he's talking about anyway

barrel length has absolutely NOTHING to do with range, OR ACCURACY
It's meaningless. It has no bearing what so ever.
What matters is COMPRESSION, and QUALITY.

You can have a 650mm 6.08 G&P barrel in a gun with a full upgraded prometheus mechbox, and I guarantee you it won't shoot as nice as the same gun with a 247mm prometheus 6.03 barrel.

Case and point, my stock HFC beretta, with a barrel shorter than 160mm, could outrange, and was more accurate, than a stock TM VSR-10. It shot as well as some well upgraded AEG's

My TM VSR-10 has a 430mm barrel, it had the exact same upgrades as Amos' VSR-10 at the time, except he had a 650mm barrel and an extra 70fps on me. Guess what? We got the same accuracy, and he got about another 15 feet of range on me with that extra 70fps.

Barrel length means nothing in spring guns and AEG's.
Your BB never actually hits the side of the barrel, the compressive forces keep your BB centered down the length of the barrel. So the longer your barrel is, the more air you need to keep it centered, and the longer you NEED to keep it centered, the greater chance of something going wrong with the air current or with barrel defects or with dirt in the barrel.

yes because whether compression is perfect or not -

400FPS + hop up effect + BB = 200 feet

same gun, next shot = bad compression, so it shoots 380FPS instead of 400

380FPS + hop up effect + BB = 190 feet

then how would that differ from a gun that is consistently shooting @ 380FPS?

You see, a G&G cansoft has terrible seal with their piston heads, which I believe you agree with. They shoot at about 360 FPS out of the box with that horrendous seal. However, it shoots just as far as any other 360FPS guns with the same BBs and hop up setting, compression isn't playing a factor here.

However, as you said, if the compression is good, then it will shoot at a higher FPS, which for example, would be 380FPS. Then in which case, yes, it will go farther.

But rather, that is ultimately the FPS that is playing the factor no?

Consistency is just consistency, it doesn't make the BB go any farther. It's like saying you hit a nail with your hammer with the same force repeatedly, but that does not make each swing stronger.

really now?

and right away you just repeat my first presented idea. So do you agree with me or disagree?

disagree, because I've actually SEEN it working.
A guarder AK at 310fps can outrange a poorly tuned VSR-10 at 470fps.
My G3SG-1 at 360fps outranges an HFC VSR-10 at 470fps
My HFC beretta at 290fps outranges any stock CA, G&P and TM AEG
My UMP shooting 280fps with nothing more than a hopup rubber and a cylinder set outranges a fully upgraded systema AEG.

Hopup rubbers don't make up for fault in the system, they just help the gun get more range. If you don't have proper compression, the gun can't recenter the BB in the barrel after it hits the hopup rubber and your range suffers greatly.

It's not about FPS, it's about COMPRESSION, they're two entirely different concepts. The stability of your BB on it's way out the gun as opposed to the velocity of the BB. And it's the whole reason why a fully upgraded sniper rifle will always out shoot a fully upgraded AEG. Better compression wins every time.

Cactus wins the discussion, that UMP doesn't even have a spring in it and it outranges systemas upgraded AEGs.

I'm wondering, has either theory been proven? Some people say that tightbores work because the bb has more time to bounce around, and in a tighter barrel, the bb will end up more accurate because of the angle of each bounce. Other people are saying that there's a cushion of air that keeps the bb from hitting the sides, but if so, what was the point of the twist barrels? I'm not trying to disprove or prove either one, but has anyone actually cut open a barrel or done anything to "scientifically" show what happens inside a barrel, or are both still speculation?

I wouldn't know because all my guns have good compression with 4~5FPS consistency.

They are two entirely different concepts. Of course

I'm sorry what?

so if the BB leaves the barrel with more stability, then it will go farther? Okay then, think about this.

A baseball pitcher pitches the ball @ 140km/hr. It isn't stable at all, of course not, there isn't any barrel to guide it or anything. It isn't stable for shit. So according to you, the ball that he just threw will somehow land on the ground right after he throws it? I'm trying to understand you, but you're not making sense.

yup, im sorry i even tried. This dude's too good.

Wow!!!!
 

Wow... short barrel are has precise has a long one... thhat is one HUGE affirmation....

1) The exit velocity is the result of lenght vs acceleration... the less lenght the more kick in the pants you need (to be at say 380 fps)... wish in turn results in more blow by, meanning more turbulence inside the barrl meanning a less stable bb at exit less precision....

2) Plus I'd be curious to see how that (over pressure) effects the hop up's hability to do it's work!!! Even with hard rubber the unit will be presurized

3) it would seem improbable at best that ((for a specific setup)) a shorter barrel would have the same precision long range then a short one...


Cheers,

Pete

How do the dynamics of baseball pitching factor into to airsoft in any way shape or form?
Sportco, your arguement does make sense. However proper compression also includes laminar airflow through the barrel. A stock 290fps HFC beretta can outrange, and has more accuracy than a stock 310fps CA M16, even though the barrel on the M16 is significantly longer.
The hard PROVEN fact, through experience in the field with shorter and longer barreled guns, through actual field testing, not through idle speculation and theory, is that you can get the same range and accuracy out of a shorter barrel than you can out of a longer one.

Where's Stalker when you need him?
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3657458_n.jpg

You brought up stability, so I gave you an example of a projectile with little stability. And it still flies far. Your theory doesn't make sense in this real world application.

Okay, so you presented an idea. now explain it. How does Laminar airflow make the BB go farther? Explain the science behind that. As far as anyone can tell, that only helps with accuracy.

Systema and PDI made their 6.04 and 6.05 barrel to give Laminar airflow between the BB and barrel like you said. So you're idea is valid and true. However, both Systema and PDI presented it for ACCURACY, not range. In fact, PDI goes as far as saying 6.05 is only for Accuracy and 6.01 is for RANGE because it gives you more FPS.

Now explain your laminar airflow suggestion and how it gives you more range? Prove the maker of PTW and One of the highest quality upgrade parts manufacturer wrong for me. I would love to hear your suggestion.

This, I agree 100% with.

Is that me? Lol, scanned over the entire thing, now I have to go back and actually READ! I did think about being a smartass and ask if I can get 300ft effective range out of a 0.30g BB leaving the barrel at about 250fps, but that's old.

He should be using the springless UMP!

Never the less, epic pic is epic.

Love it Cactus, love it!!! Hahaha

So thanks for all the replies but there seems to be no general agreement and what makes a gun get range and accuracy. This compression thing though makes sense to me. What do you have to do to make a gun have good compression? Also if there is a disagreement over if compression, or longer barrel, or FPS make a gun shoot further and more accurately. Then why not combined all into one gun? That seems like a pretty straight forward way to cover all the steps. I am buying an SR10 KWA. But if we can conclude that barrel length doesn't matter then I will buy a shorter gun.

redux
 

A stable airfoil generates less drag... that is a constant...

But what I was stating was that ((( it would seem improbable at best that ((for a specific setup)) meanning SAME GUN a shorter barrel would have the same precision long range then a short one... at equal exit velocity...

On that I stand by my statement...

As for another gun... my tm usp aep at 220 fps put my gbb to shame at 280fps ((range and precision)).

But for the same gun... I think same precision is unlikely

Cheers

Pete

Lol the best thing for range and accuracy would be;

Long barrel with cylinder that's rated to the barrel
FPS matched to hop-up rubber
Excellent compression

But again -- My team's Realsword Type 56 with the 455mm barrels and 390 FPS spring shoot only about 10-15 feet shorter than my SVD with a 690 mm barrel and 450 FPS spring.

The reason? Compression. SVD uses proprietary parts so I wasn't able to install any Airsoft Research Syndicate parts :( ARS Cylinder heads combined with the ARS Piston heads is the BEST air-seal I've come across to date.

All guns are using the proper hop-up rubber/spacers...

Almost make me wanna get a Type 56 lol

Airsoft Trajectory Project, as hosted by BB Bastard. Mirrored on Airsoft mechanics

http://www.bbbastard.com/ATP/07-a-02.htm

BB Travel Distance with hop up using 0.25g BBs (Different velocities.)
http://www.bbbastard.com/ATP/07-a-020.gif

0.37J = 180FPS w/ 0.25g : 110Feet
0.84J = 270FPS w/ 0.25g : 153Feet
1.49J = 360FPS w/ 0.25g : 185Feet
2.32J = 450FPS w/ 0.25g : 220Feet
3.35J = 540FPS w/ 0.25g : 250Feet

add about 40 FPS which is an approximate FPS with 0.20g BBs.

There is a CLEAR linear improvement in range as the FPS is increased in this test, and the only 3 controlled variables in this test are : FPS, BB weight, and hop up setting, other factors affecting the range was ENTIRELY external to the rifle. As shown in the project, they are:


Drag Force
Magnus Force
Terminal Velocity
Spin Decay
Drag Coefficient
Lift Coefficient
Gravity

Therefore, as far as your Gun have control: FPS + BB + Hop up setting = Range

Really good info, but no one has mentioned specific parts I need internally to guarantee good compression. I just want to know everything I should put and do to my sr10 to get good long, accurate shots.

First thing to put into your gun would be 0.28g to 0.30g QUALITY BBs. Is the best and easiest upgrade for longer range accurate shots.

Ya Ok one more time, I have a discount code for from where I am buying... I want to buy everything right now. I want to make this really easy on myself by doing it all at once. So what upgrades do I need for my gun to get good compression, good accuracy, good distance anything.

tightbore barrel
hop-up
all internals
.28 bbs

I dont believe full internal replacement is required.

That is unless you are dead set on changing something that works perfectly fine. I believe KWA stock compression components are sufficient.

Ok so I was thinking Hnub, tightbore barrel, for internals, maybe a better hop up. Anything else?

A unicorn, a tricycle, one of those Toy Story 3 Barbie dolls where she is dressed in clothes that has toy story three characters on it, and a bouncy castle since youre asking.

Easiest upgrades. Tight bore, SCS, Hop up bucking. Cheap and easy to install. After that, piston head, cylinder head and air nozzle with o-ring.

Actually is there anywhere that tells me what all these upgrades do for me? I Was reading that with the TBB that most need a cylinder type 0, not sure why but is this true? I wouldnt mind knowing what all these upgrades get me lol.

I have no idea where you read that but no you do not require a non ported cylinder.
If you purchase the correct length of tight bore barrel which ideally should be the exact same length as your stock barrel then your stock cylinder should already be the appropriate bore set up.


What do you mean? You whined about getting upgrades for range and accuracy! What do you think the upgrades we suggested do? Give your AEG the ability to make coffee for you at 7AM before you get out of bed? Do your laundry? Wash your car? Wipe your ass?
No they give you better range and accuracy.

Tokyoseven I like when you talk dirty to me like that... No what I was saying was is there a place that says ok here is how an SCS benefits you. Here is how a bucking benefits you, here is how this benefits you. I cant seem to find anywhere that breaks down the parts in the gun tells me what they do in the gun, and what I can replace them with to benefit me. However, what I have gathered here is that the best thing i could do is buy a tightbore barrel, an SCS and a bucking first. This is what I am going to do, I would like to hope that what I have read about KWAs is true. According to several other places they have amazing compression out of the box.

Allow me to get your started then.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...ove/Google.jpg


Hmm lets see what we can find when we type this in...

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...ddergoogle.jpg


Holy shit....first result at the top of the list

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j.../shredpage.jpg


Lets see where this takes us...

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...actualpage.jpg


And here is your answer as to how and why an SCS works.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...howitworks.jpg


You may wish to visit that website and read additional information. Here is the link.

http://shredderscs.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=scs

Lets see if I cant get you started

Once again lets go to google

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...ove/Google.jpg

Hey look! First hit on google again! Are you sure you looked that hard?
At least its the same version of mechbox you will have in your AEG.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...echboxwork.jpg

Very interesting...but it doesnt list the name of the parts!
http://www.mechbox.com/data/how-the-mechbox-works.html

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...2animation.jpg

Lets go back to google again!

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...ove/Google.jpg

What do we have here...pictures! Awesome everyone loves pictures.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...iagramlink.jpg


Once again...very very interesting and useful!
http://miairsoft.proboards.com/index...y&thread=28751

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...boxdiagram.jpg


But wait! It doesnt list exact specifics of how each and every part works. Ok well lets....go back to step one!

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...ove/Google.jpg

Im not going to assist on this one and Ive held your hand long enough, so you can wear your big boy pants now and dig around on google yourself and see what you can come up with.

Oh my special wittle little guy heres a link to google to get your started.

www.google.com

Dont forget to try different wording for your search parameters, it will definitely help yield different results.

Chew your food 28 times before swallowing and look both ways before you cross the street!

-Edit

PS.

Dont forget to wash behind your ears!
And dont talk to strangers
Finger always off the trigger of your AEG unless you are planning to shoot!
If youre on fire stop drop and roll!

Poor bastard...hope he got his order in eventually :)

All my rifles are CQBR'-ish lengths for a reason...

And I only shoot 0.28's and 0.30's...rifle and/or pistol

Compression first, hopup tuning next, finish with nice BBs = win

- tightbores, nice internals, etc... help with the consistency and accuracy of it all.

FPS only matters for how much you don't want to hurt your buddies while still retaining some "hey, you're hit"-thwack.

Cleaning your barrel does wonders.

Holy spoonfeed Batman, that's awesome! Sticky that!!! I bet it'd cover a lot of noob questions asked every couple days.

like you said, that only helps with the accuracy, not range like the OP stated.

Read thread buddy, we who have now know how intricate the compression/hop/barrel have on effective the range. With a little reading so can you:cool:

I believe there's a huge misunderstanding on both sides of the debate. One side keeps talking about effective range(compression, hop, etc), and the other pure range(FPS, hop, bb).

The OP didn't specify what type of range (whether effective or just maximum with ignorance to accuracy) that he would like to achieve. Con Murder like you said, compression/hop/barrel have a great effect on the "EFFECTIVENESS of the range". Which is consistency and accuracy. The law of physics is that, the BB has no memory of where it came out from when it leaves the barrel, so the only factors that affects the pure flight distance of the BB are FPS, hop up, and BB weight(Trust me, I've read Airsoft Trajectory Project in 2007 and again now). Consistency is not going to improve pure distance, however, it would improve the effective range.

If the OP's pursuit is purely distance, then FPS and BB are the only way to go, along with good hop up(Which I believe is agreed on both sides). But it is just as important to achieve good compression in order to achieve good consistency at longer range, and maximizing effective range.

I hope I've made myself clear.

I did mean accuracy with regards to how all the parts fit together, tolerances and precision.

However, I do believe that accuracy...as in how exactly a shot will impact what you are aiming at...comes from:
1. Consistent FPS
2. Consistent application of hopup
3. Consistent BBs
......so point well taken.

However, there's a general dilution of meaning when people use the term range and accuracy at range.
- A given setup may have more total range (i.e. the distance from the muzzle to when the BB hits the group) than another (and it isn't all from FPS...hopup plays an enormous part in this) but can't hit the broadside of van at that range.

So you're really discussing two things here...range...and effective range. What most people want is more effective range. They want to hit what they're aiming at...and they want to be able to hit things further away.

To do that consistenly...you need accuracy. You need consitent compression...you need your FPS/BB/Rubber to be balanced such that you get the most consistent hopup applied...you need to consistent BBs so that the compression and hopup is applied the same shot after shot.

So in that blurred definition...you need accuracy to realize your most effective range.

If you're FPS is 350-351-355-352-350-349-350, etc... Then your rifle is shooting an avg of 351. If you're only getting 351 once out of every seven shots...then you're going to need to shoot more shots, to hit accurately, than a setup that shooting 350-351-351-350-352-351, etc...

Ideally, you'd want each BB coming out of the barrel at the exact same speed, with the same amount of hopup spin lift. You'd also want the BBs to be exactly the same weight, have the same surface finish, have the same center of gravity, have the same diameter, etc... (lot to ask for in a BB).

So...what to do? Settle for a "that's good enough...I'll play within my effective range"

To be able to pick out a guys hand at 200ft and say, "I can drill that every time"...sure, that'd be nice. But really not all common in airsoft. More commonly you've got a much bigger target to aim at/hit. If at that range your volley of shots would normally miss...then you need to move up into your effective range...or fine tune things to realize more effective range from your rifle.

It ain't all FPS. I've had more than a few simply beautiful shooters that shot in the "mild" 340-370 range...but man oh man, they could blast guys at range with the best of them. One had a short 280mm-ish barrel (6.03mm)...the other a little longer.

**edit**
Pffft...just saw your last post. :)

Thank you, you are a smart man :)

*shakes hands

All your fancy charts and theories mean nothing.
The cold hard fact is that I outranged a 470fps rifle on .30s with a 360fps rifle on .25s.
I've outranged a 400fps rifle with a 290fps pistol
A 280fps UMP on .25s can outrange a 400fps AEG on .28s
I've seen first hand Amos' team's type 56's outrange his SVD.
And at the open house, my M249 at a mere 320fps managed to somehow outrange most other rifles there!

Heavier BB's give you a huge advantage at higher velocities in both range and accuracy, there's no doubt about that. So how is it physically possible that I can outrange a high fps rifle with heavy bb's with an AEG that has inferior FPS and a lower bb weight??
If everything that touches the air that moves the BB (piston head, cylinder head, cylinder, air nozzle, hop chamber, hop rubber, inner barrel) are of good quality and seal really well, you'll have an amazingly long range and accurate gun. Good compression = laminar flow, bad compression = air leaks = turbulent flow.
I'm not saying FPS has no effect on range, I'm saying it's significantly less than people think. Having good compression is more important than high FPS.

People used to think everything fell at the same speed. Until someone figured out how to build a structure more than 200 feet tall. All of a sudden heavy things hit the ground before lighter things. WITCHCRAFT!
All your theories, fancy math, big words, university level calculus and small difficult words mean nothing in comparison to actual field trial ;)

When you say outrange, do you mean the BB literally goes farther? or more effectively to a farther out distance? was the hop up set perfectly for each of these BBs? Were the guns using the same BBs? Same weight? Same brand? Were they tested side by side? were they tested on different days?

Because your claims raises a few questions.

Your claims literally break a NUMBER of laws of physics, especially those of newton's(gravity constant), AND acceleration. From a purely on-paper perspective, your claims can be instantly dropped as bogus claims. And please do not disrespect laws of physics. They are not THEORIES of physics, they are LAWS, meaning they have been proven, for hundreds of years. Without these laws your airsoft guns would not exist.

Like both I and m102404 have said, compression is purely for consistency purposes. They do not affect the flight distance of the BB. Yes, it will increase the EFFECTIVE range of your rifle, but not the pure distance like you claim. It will affect the flight distance only if better compression has achieved higher FPS. This has been proved in ATP.

When I first read Airsoft Trajectory Project, it was great because it proved many things, such as heavier BBs went farther, and these were real life testings. I believe BB Bastard hosts them because they prove something, and are extensive studies with constant control factors. In that sense, with the proofs and testing, ATP's claims of improving pure flight distance(FPS, BB, and hop up) is much more credible and believable because ATP's extensive testings and proofing backs it up. Now if you dismiss these proofs and testings as "Your fancy charts means nothing" and go on only to write a few words of your "witnessing" with no proof, writing a theory that breaks laws of physics, and disrespect, personally I believe you lose a lot of credibility for me. Because you are not giving a single bit of respect to your opposition's proofs and testings. On top of that, it's such an adolescent thing to immediately dismiss any findings disproving your beliefs.

But like I said, you're emphasis on Compression is good. After all, what's the point if you can shoot 200 feet but can't hit a side of the barn right? So you need consistency, and compression is a great way to achieve that. But for purely distance applications with ignorance to consistency and accuracy, it's FPS, BBs, and hop up.

So It's not always "my way or the highway" ;)

just my 2 cents.

I've witnessed all of Cactus' claims.

He's using the .25's in the M9 because it has a fixed hop set for .25's

I'll reiterate this train of thought -- FPS is not the most important factor in range.

Wait... what? I must have been sleeping in class because this doesn't make sense.

I'm going to have to give a lot of this my backing because I've been watching various BBs fly out of various guns at various velocities and seen some pretty awesome things. Is great being me, I have a real eye for BB flight characteristics from testing and experience, and also have the mindset of being able to sort out what is going one when I see things (helps to work in the area of aerospace research, have been learning a lot over the years about aerodynamics and such).

Here's something to wrap your heads around, hop up on heavier BBs (0.25g and above) not only generates lift, but also reduces drag. Open up your minds and debate that nugget. Lol

Air resistance. AKA the reason why feathers 'float'.


Also, this thread made me LOL so full of win and fail comments. I love horrendous misinformation.



My mind, that just blew it.

It is because of density and shape moreso than mass. Think parachute vs 200lb chunk of rock. The chute decreases the density of the person relative to the air. The same reason why people float in water, and why you'll get sucked under in an avalanche.

I don't think the OP was asking for a physics lesson.

There are thousands of factors that will go into play that cannot be controlled. He's asking for quantifiable controllable changes that he can make to his gun to improve accuracy and range.For example; He cannot change the gravitational constant of the universe but it will effect the range of his shots so there's no point in discussing it here.

As was said before, there are many simple things you can do.

The simplest is use a heavier bb. As it will not be effected as greatly as a lighter one. Also buy the best quality you can find. I have used BB bastards and I found them excellent.

Moving from there, increasing the power of the spring your using is usually the next step. And so on and so forth.


Cheers.

Still cant see any links between this and :

2 objects of same shape but different masses should have the same acceleration whether you drop them from 20 feet or 200 feet high. No?

Air resistance comes into play there. A lighter object (for fun say a 0.20g BB) will be more likely affected by air resistance than a heavier object (say a 0.36g), so the heavier will hit the ground sooner than the lighter.

Acceleration yes, speed dropped from that height yes, but not terminal velocity, that's the point I was getting at lol
The big problem with doing drop tests from a 200ft building is that most objects actually reach their terminal velocity ABOVE 200ft.

We saw the trailer for whatever movie where a guy is strato diving and it turns out theres a dragon trying to catch up to him. I put forth that at their altitude, the dragon would have no problem catching up to him.
Yet he argued that because the dragon was larger, it would fall significantly slower. And I argued that because the dragon weighs several hundred pounds more, and it's frame is built for being aerodynamic, the dragon would indeed fall faster.
He religiously argued that mass had nothing to do with terminal velocity. And stated that a 2L bottle of water and a 2L bottle of lead would hit the ground at the same time dropped from any height.
Well form 200ft they'll hit the ground at the same time, but the difference in velocity for both objects wouldn't differ for about 2000ft of freefall

Anyway to summarize, he's a dumbass and I won the arguement. Seems to be common in his family though as his uncle swore water was the most conductive thing in the world lol

look, thundercactus, you need to chilax, take a step back, and think about what you are saying.

By applying your theory of compression and laminar airflow, you are saying that a pitching machine spitting a Baseball @140km/h will fly the ball farther than a baseball PITCHER throwing the same ball @ 140km/h.

That's just absolutely mindfuckingly absurd. Cmon brother, it's common sense. Assuming that they are both 140km/h, and projected at the same angle, under the same conditions, they WILL fly the same distance.

And the sole reason you would state that theory is because the pitching machine has barrel guidance and laminar airflow projecting it.

seems like all of your weaker FPS + short barrel guns CONSTANTLY outranges all of your longer barrel and higher FPS guns. So why don't you build us a 50FPS AEG(+ awesome compression) with 10mm innerbarrel that outranges any 400FPS 600mm barrel AEG? cmon do it, it'll be fun! And then make a video for us.

What's more? That 50FPS gun will fly as far as 1000feet! Obviously duh! Laws of Compression!

Apply the right hopup and I guarantee the pitching machine will throw it further than the pitcher!
Obviously not every low fps gun outranges every high fps gun, those are just my examples that you don't need high fps to get long range. Using .36g BBs with a 470fps sniper rifle, with good compression, blows everything away.
And a 50fps pistol won't outrange anything because there's an ideal speed for BB's to get maximum range, and that speed is 330-350fps :)

In high fps rifles you use heavier ammo. Why? Because it's more accurate, yes, buy say you have a 400fps VSR-10. It's about the most reliable platform you can do testing on.
It's shooting .20g BB's at 400fps, they go all over place, but if you manage to get one to go straight you notice is has crap for range anyway because it always destabilizes vertically no matter what you set your hopup to.
If your using .25s, much better but still doesn't get a great flightpath.
.30s, okay now we're talking, they're heavier so it's harder for them to destabilize, not to mention they don't have air bubbles in them which greatly improves accuracy more than anything else. But they're also flying slow enough that they maintain their path very easily.
As you go up in weight all of a sudden you start losing range and there's nothing you can do to improve on it except go to a higher FPS.

Think of it like a glider, a glider has an optimal gliding speed, and it's NEVER it's maximum speed.
And as far as sporting good are concerned, this happens with baseballs as well, your hopup has a greater effect on your projectile at certain velocities. If your going to fast, your hopup may not have any effect at all, too slow and you'll just be shooting upwards.
I used to serve volleyballs by 'cutting' the bottom of the ball horizontally, giving it the same hopup effect as a BB. It would go damn straight every time. Once I put so much spin on it it barely got any range at all, it was going to fall 3 feet short of the net. At about 5 feet in the air it got to such a low velocity that the hopup effect hit it's optimal point and it literally picked itself back up and hopped over the net.

By straight simple physics, your absolutely correct. But your failing to take into account that hopup drastically changes the simple physics of the BB.
And if you don't have good compression, your BB doesn't stay centered in your barrel And it ricochets down before it leaves, therefore giving you crap range, crap accuracy and crap consistency.